Emperor's Furor Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I can understand why commanders like Danitoch remained loyal to the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3659941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 "Their sin was not that they had failed in the Great Crusade's service - for by no measure had this been the case, but instead that they had not reached their full potential. It was not enough for Perturabo that they were merely superior, their fault lay in that among the Legions they were not already supreme." pg. 110 If that is the full quote, it seems pretty clear to me that the issue with the IW wasn't not being the best legion but not being the best they could be. He sees that they are broken and just fix them, otherwise they will never meet their potential or his expectations. Are we reading the same quote? Going by that quote and that quote alone, it seems pretty clear Perturabo punished them for not being the best. I'm not going to go all "dictionary definition" on this thread, but that's what supreme is, the best, especially if it's being used as a comparison to being superior. "It was not enough for Perturabo that they were merely superior, their fault lay in that among the Legions they were not already supreme" Haven't read Extermination yet, and according to other posters there are quotes on other pages that change the story a little, but going on this single quote it's pretty clear why Perturabo did it. It really can't be taken any other way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3659955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Honestly heathens is perturabo, and I can see that in reality the mindset of perturabo is that of a conqueror and king. He inspires within me thoughts of Alexander the Great I feel he truly is the most humanic primarch not because he's humane but because he is quick to loose his temper he's treated lowly he doesn't trust he's brooding and he's a dreamer. He is all of us Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3659956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyromancer Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Honestly heathens is perturabo, and I can see that in reality the mindset of perturabo is that of a conqueror and king. He inspires within me thoughts of Alexander the Great I feel he truly is the most humanic primarch not because he's humane but because he is quick to loose his temper he's treated lowly he doesn't trust he's brooding and he's a dreamer. He is all of us But the greatest part of Perturabo is the paradox. The fact that he is the most relatable in his anger and jealousy, but also was the least relatable in other ways. He had no interest in glory or honor. He wanted success and respect for his legion. He cared little for human life or even the lives of his legionaries. In ways he was the direct opposite of Vulkan in certain respects. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3659979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Those in possession of the book, what are the unique micro quirks of the legion, short of what we know to be decreased pain sensitivity from First Heretic? terran muster grounds were the tek-tribes of sek-amrak (middle east). gene-seed shows above average adaptability and notably low rates of implant rejection, "particulary in comparison with difficulties in large scale implantation encountered with other progenoid types" [like VII.], so the IW fighting strength would be built rapidly, leading to early successes in the pacification of terra along the I. and V. legions (III. suffered from a lab disaster and nobody knows about the II.). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3659983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 If you want something done… For anyone else looking for Extermination background info on the IV legion, the generic 40k Wiki seems to have a word for word copy of the book. And its so grimdark. Me likely. Me likey a lot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 He had no interest in glory or honor. Say whaaaaat? Given that one of the main reasons for Perturabo's turn was that he felt he and his Legion weren't receiving the glory and honor their efforts deserved, that's like saying Lorgar didn't really care about religion, or that Magnus wasn't concerned with the sorcerous arts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Glory is different from respect, Wade. Pertuabo wanted respect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Glory is different from respect, Wade. Pertuabo wanted respect. The distinction means little when both is wanted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyromancer Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Hmmm, perhaps I stated that wrong. I think that he initially can no interest in honor or glory, but because of this the legion was taken advantage of, and he also saw the other primarches gaining glory, so he grew jealous. So I suppose that he did wish for glory in a way, but as Basswave said he more wanted respect and recognition. A mere 'good job' or an important campaign would have sufficed. He still didn't want parades or worshippers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 "Their sin was not that they had failed in the Great Crusade's service - for by no measure had this been the case, but instead that they had not reached their full potential. It was not enough for Perturabo that they were merely superior, their fault lay in that among the Legions they were not already supreme." pg. 110 If that is the full quote, it seems pretty clear to me that the issue with the IW wasn't not being the best legion but not being the best they could be. He sees that they are broken and just fix them, otherwise they will never meet their potential or his expectations. Are we reading the same quote? Going by that quote and that quote alone, it seems pretty clear Perturabo punished them for not being the best. I'm not going to go all "dictionary definition" on this thread, but that's what supreme is, the best, especially if it's being used as a comparison to being superior. "It was not enough for Perturabo that they were merely superior, their fault lay in that among the Legions they were not already supreme" Haven't read Extermination yet, and according to other posters there are quotes on other pages that change the story a little, but going on this single quote it's pretty clear why Perturabo did it. It really can't be taken any other way. I highlighted the section above that I'm referring to. Again, I don't have the book so I'm going only on the quote above. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive, his standard may have been that they should've been the absolute best legion, but the quote seems to speak more that they didn't live up to his expectation. He wanted and expected something that was better than what he actually got. He was disappointed in them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 "Their sin was not that they had failed in the Great Crusade's service - for by no measure had this been the case, but instead that they had not reached their full potential. It was not enough for Perturabo that they were merely superior, their fault lay in that among the Legions they were not already supreme." pg. 110 If that is the full quote, it seems pretty clear to me that the issue with the IW wasn't not being the best legion but not being the best they could be. He sees that they are broken and just fix them, otherwise they will never meet their potential or his expectations. Are we reading the same quote? Going by that quote and that quote alone, it seems pretty clear Perturabo punished them for not being the best. I'm not going to go all "dictionary definition" on this thread, but that's what supreme is, the best, especially if it's being used as a comparison to being superior. "It was not enough for Perturabo that they were merely superior, their fault lay in that among the Legions they were not already supreme" Haven't read Extermination yet, and according to other posters there are quotes on other pages that change the story a little, but going on this single quote it's pretty clear why Perturabo did it. It really can't be taken any other way. I highlighted the section above that I'm referring to. Again, I don't have the book so I'm going only on the quote above. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive, his standard may have been that they should've been the absolute best legion, but the quote seems to speak more that they didn't live up to his expectation. He wanted and expected something that was better than what he actually got. He was disappointed in them. I agree that they are not mutually exclusive, but I feel that the second line defines the first. Their sin was that they had not met their full potential. Their full potential was to be the supreme Legion. But, I agree that it all seems to come down to Perturabo's disappointment in seeing that his Legion did not stand up to his expectations. He didn't want something that simply 'better,' he wanted the absolute best. Which says a lot about him when you consider that he had spent time with the Emperor, learning of the Imperium. He was familiar with the other Legions, when he set his expectations of his Legion as being the best of them. The expectation was not made in a vacuum, irrespective of the actual capabilities of the other Legions. Indeed, the two who could declare themselves the best were likely already well on their way to being such at that time. Perturabo was one harsh mistress. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Glory is different from respect, Wade. Pertuabo wanted respect. The distinction means little when both is wanted. provide proof or at least citation please to back up your assumption. I feel that the second line defines the first. Their sin was that they had not met their full potential. Their full potential was to be the supreme Legion. But, I agree that it all seems to come down to Perturabo's disappointment in seeing that his Legion did not stand up to his expectations. He didn't want something that simply 'better,' he wanted the absolute best. see where the word "supreme(ly)" pops up another time on the very same page to learn how "the best" is defined there. the two who could declare themselves the best were likely already well on their way to being such at that time. Due to easy of implantation, the IV was one of the most numerous legions in the beginning along the I and V and thought of the most reliable, which is why they were "trusted" with the unthankful duties. The high losses typical of siege warfare and a self-destructive drive to prove their worth (prior to decimation) then led to them being eclipsed by other (lesser) legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Then imagine it like this. You are given a present, but you're pretty sure it's broken. It could be improved. So, using what you have, with the knowledge you have, you make adjustments. When you're done, it works like you think it should, and you're satisfied with the results of your work. In reality, you've utterly ruined it with rough treatment and poor worksmanship, and it's a miracle it even functions. But, you don't care. You did the work, you know it's the best, because it was done with your own hands. That's good enough to make you feel like it's the best ever. Years go by, and people keep telling you it sucks. Worse, no one sees the hard work you put into it, and either don't acknowledge what you've done, or blatantly tell you it's friggin' terrible. You try to ignore it, but as time goes on, you slowly become angry about it, the more it's brought up. Heck, your brother got the same gift and made changes, and people always praise him! Like, seriously, what the heck? I did work too, you know! I really like what I made, it's the best! But does anybody notice? NooOOOooOOoo... they just praise him instead.... mine's the best, dammit. Mine. Suddenly, one day, you find out that something else you made changes to, years ago, has suddenly caught fire and burnt your house to the ground. Burnt to the ground, because of your shoddy worksmanship. Which, y'know, wasn't your fault, because you did everything you could, and it was the best, because you made it. But it was your worksmanship. But... ...Now, what do you do? How do you feel, after years of turning the other cheek to ridicule, now seeing such truths that cannot be ignored? It just makes no sense. It was the best.... It's disturbing how little this post would have to be changed to apply to the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Then imagine it like this. You are given a present, but you're pretty sure it's broken. It could be improved. So, using what you have, with the knowledge you have, you make adjustments. When you're done, it works like you think it should, and you're satisfied with the results of your work. In reality, you've utterly ruined it with rough treatment and poor worksmanship, and it's a miracle it even functions. But, you don't care. You did the work, you know it's the best, because it was done with your own hands. That's good enough to make you feel like it's the best ever. Years go by, and people keep telling you it sucks. Worse, no one sees the hard work you put into it, and either don't acknowledge what you've done, or blatantly tell you it's friggin' terrible. You try to ignore it, but as time goes on, you slowly become angry about it, the more it's brought up. Heck, your brother got the same gift and made changes, and people always praise him! Like, seriously, what the heck? I did work too, you know! I really like what I made, it's the best! But does anybody notice? NooOOOooOOoo... they just praise him instead.... mine's the best, dammit. Mine. Suddenly, one day, you find out that something else you made changes to, years ago, has suddenly caught fire and burnt your house to the ground. Burnt to the ground, because of your shoddy worksmanship. Which, y'know, wasn't your fault, because you did everything you could, and it was the best, because you made it. But it was your worksmanship. But... ...Now, what do you do? How do you feel, after years of turning the other cheek to ridicule, now seeing such truths that cannot be ignored? It just makes no sense. It was the best.... It's disturbing how little this post would have to be changed to apply to the Emperor. Only to those who never thought about Him this way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Aye, the Emperor never hid the fact that he was just another tyrant, I don’t remember where he had this conversation (think it was with Mal) but he wryly admitted the only difference was that he was ‘better’ than the other tyrants, thus being just like them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 "Their sin was not that they had failed in the Great Crusade's service - for by no measure had this been the case, but instead that they had not reached their full potential. It was not enough for Perturabo that they were merely superior, their fault lay in that among the Legions they were not already supreme." pg. 110If that is the full quote, it seems pretty clear to me that the issue with the IW wasn't not being the best legion but not being the best they could be. He sees that they are broken and just fix them, otherwise they will never meet their potential or his expectations. Are we reading the same quote? Going by that quote and that quote alone, it seems pretty clear Perturabo punished them for not being the best. I'm not going to go all "dictionary definition" on this thread, but that's what supreme is, the best, especially if it's being used as a comparison to being superior. "It was not enough for Perturabo that they were merely superior, their fault lay in that among the Legions they were not already supreme" Haven't read Extermination yet, and according to other posters there are quotes on other pages that change the story a little, but going on this single quote it's pretty clear why Perturabo did it. It really can't be taken any other way. I highlighted the section above that I'm referring to. Again, I don't have the book so I'm going only on the quote above. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive, his standard may have been that they should've been the absolute best legion, but the quote seems to speak more that they didn't live up to his expectation. He wanted and expected something that was better than what he actually got. He was disappointed in them. I agree that they are not mutually exclusive, but I feel that the second line defines the first. Their sin was that they had not met their full potential. Their full potential was to be the supreme Legion. But, I agree that it all seems to come down to Perturabo's disappointment in seeing that his Legion did not stand up to his expectations. He didn't want something that simply 'better,' he wanted the absolute best. Which says a lot about him when you consider that he had spent time with the Emperor, learning of the Imperium. He was familiar with the other Legions, when he set his expectations of his Legion as being the best of them. The expectation was not made in a vacuum, irrespective of the actual capabilities of the other Legions. Indeed, the two who could declare themselves the best were likely already well on their way to being such at that time. Perturabo was one harsh mistress. One of the things I find interesting about this is that the two Legions generally called out as the best, the Sons of Horus and the Ultramarines, are usually attributed to the strengths of their primarch. Perturabo expected the IV to be better than the Horus-led Luna Wolves without Perturabo. Some seriously high expectations there! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 So the Emp applauded Pert's decimation. Going back to heathens's post again, shoddy craftsmanship seems to run in the family. Makes you wonder if the Emp didn't decimate the Primarchs at one point. After all, two out of twenty went missing... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 That makes so much sense it's not funny. - I'd like to stress the word 'potential' in that pesky little quote. Didn't Perturabo say "Better to die having exhausted one's strength than to fail without ever reaching your limits?" From this, my understanding is not that he punished Legio IV for not being the best, but for wasting their potential.It's a small nuance, but it's there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 That makes so much sense it's not funny. - I'd like to stress the word 'potential' in that pesky little quote. Didn't Perturabo say "Better to die having exhausted one's strength than to fail without ever reaching your limits?" From this, my understanding is not that he punished Legio IV for not being the best, but for wasting their potential. It's a small nuance, but it's there. I didn't quote it but that statement definitely colored my reading of the Extermination quote above. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3660858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Forgive me if I missed this earlier in the thread, but is there a legit reason written in the book, aside from Perturabo & Dorn's instinctive dislike (though I suppose that could be enough) that the Iron Warriors and Fists hate one another? IW's in past fluff pieces have called the IF's liars and taking credit for things they didn't really earn. Is there concrete evidence of things that could have been misconstrued to make the IWs feel this way? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3670732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 1, 2014 Author Share Posted May 1, 2014 The Fists were seen as being lauded for victories they hadn't earned by more than just the Iron Warriors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3670749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Basically, the Iron Warriors thought of the Fists as that kid in class who did the least amount of work but was the most liked by the teacher and still given the highest grades. I just realized I was the Fists by virtue of acing my test scores without doing the side work. O.o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3670770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 The Fists were seen as being lauded for victories they hadn't earned by more than just the Iron Warriors. Who else was bugged by it? Edit: Also by the sound of it I should really be an Iron Warriors fan as they really seem to reflect me, i.e pissed at people taking credit for what I did and me not receiving the recognition, or actually being hindered by them, plus I'm way over critical myself. Funnily enough though I'm a major Fists fan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3670904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 1, 2014 Author Share Posted May 1, 2014 Angron and Curze are noted as disliking Dorn for being commanding. Angron saw Dorn as a willing lapdog of a tyrant Id imagine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288942-iron-warrior-info-from-book-3/page/14/#findComment-3670953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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