Iron Warrior info from book 3?

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Is Perturabo's Iron Circle from Angel's Exterminatus represented at all? I feel like they'd be awesome units/models.

 

They where built after the Battle after the Phall system.

 

IP

[Hyaenidae]

=][= All posts from the Alpha Legion Thread regarding the Iron Warriors new fluff and Perturabo have been moved here. =][=

 

Also, please note that any posting of scanned pages from Massacre are violations of IP rights. Those links have been deleted.

[TheForgottenAngel]

I just want to address a point that Pert's methods of "cleansing" his legion of incompetence still happens to a lesser extent in today's US military combat and jobs. When someone makes a mistake that could cost lives. The entire unit is punished a opposed to the offender of the mistake/incompetence. This leads to the unit addressing the problem internally as opposed to an officer or outside force if the punishment would be against the whole.

 

Perturabo did this to the extreme and worked extremely well. It also built a extremely tight knit legion with great camaraderie.

 

The methods may be different but the results are the same. Perturabo just needed it in a legion scale opposed to a company scale.

 

My 2 cents.

 

My drill sergeant friends use Pert's psychological manipulation in basic training

[Hyaenidae]

Another thing of note: When Perturabo took over the Legion, he inherited ashes. The IV was once amongst the greatest, and was even lauded with honours from the Emperor. The issue was that the Legion had beat itself nearly into oblivion; individual honours were the cusp of their drive, and such drive nearly killed the IV. Perturabo used the decimation because it was the only way to save his Legion. Would such a tactic have worked with the XIII? I doubt it. Amongst the IV Legion, though, it was the only way to drive it into their stubborn, cold-hearted skulls that they either succeeded as a group, or they would die.

 

No, it wasn't humanitarian.

 

No, it wasn't kind.

 

No, it wasn't honourable.

 

It was effective, and that was the point. The Iron Warriors were born from the ashes of their failure, through cold calculation and brutal efficiency.

[Greyall]

Not convinced, mates. A kind of 'Iron Cage', a penitent/suicidal mission integrated in a Crusade would've made more sense, I feel, while still being blunt and darwinian. Only the strong would truly survive, not the unlucky.

[Tyrannicide]

To me, it's not even a question of what makes the most sense. It's friggin hardcore grimdark and unquestionably fitting to the character of the IV Legion and their Primarch.

 

The lucky "weak" ones that squeaked through decimation would undoubtedly hold a different perspective on their Legionary careers after the incident. I'm not sure how the effectiveness aspect is being questioned here. Was it the most efficient way? That's suspect. But it was damn well effective in getting the Legion to think and act together as a whole again. No more vainglorious honor chasing or satisfaction in personal achievements. We succeed as a group or we die as group. All there is to it. 

[Hyaenidae]

It wasn't about the strong surviving. It was a re-wiring of their very culture, to save the whole.

[GhostMalone]

Those that survived learnt the lesson wether weak or strong the only way to make it out alive was to work cohesively.

[Perrin]

How did it work?!

When are the Iron Warriors ever listed as one of the greatest Legions? They aren't one of Guillimans "stalwart few", they aren't ever thought of as the most ferocious fighters like the World Eaters or Space Wolves, they're never seen as one of the most capable fighting forces like the Luna Wolves or the Dark Angels.

They're seen as siege specialists, and even then they're second to the Imperial Fists.

From everything I've seen it looks like Perturabo took a Legion that had received praise and honours from other Primarchs/Legions, decimated them because they weren't the best then failed to lead them to greatness.

Don't get me wrong, after Angel Exterminatus I really like Perturabo and the IW, and I agree that it totally fits their character, but hell no did it work.

They didn't succeed as a group. The depiction of them in AE, does that look like a Legion that encompasses the bonds of brotherhood to any of you?

@C_W Yeah but I'm pretty sure they don't killed 10% of them. Punishing them as a group is fine, but there are more effective ways of doing so than decimation.

EDIT: Also, before I forget, the point about the IW destroying themselves before Perturabo is fair enough, maybe finding him did save them. The Salamanders were also destroying themselves before finding Vulkan, and I'm pretty sure he didn't need to kill 10% of them to get them back on track.

[Sgt.Sangha]

I concur with Jaspcat et al...Pert is all about the sum of the individual parts coming together as a whole, not about the individual parts themselves

[Wade Garrett]

Heathens:

 

I haven't seen the fluff for myself, my (overwhelmingly negative) opinion has been based off what others have posted.

 

What you're describing sounds like someone took the World Eaters or the Custodians (my individual heroic honor trumps the needs of the group) and hammered teamwork into their heads in the most heavy handed way possible.

 

Which is a far cry from "My Legion isn't the best. I will execute random Legionaries until it is".

[FunkyMonkey]

They're seen as siege specialists, and even then they're second to the Imperial Fists.

 

I don't think there are any sources to support that.

 

 

 

Plus, in my opinion, the Iron Warriors are representative of the cost of the Emperor's ambition to conquer the galaxy.  The one theme that we always see about the IV is that they are always given the most undesirable jobs to do and never get a break from them.  They are the most cog-in-the-machine of all the legions, and they understand that that is the price to pay for success.  They're basically in the runnings against Death Guard for most grim and gritty.

 

Plus, I don't see any other legion getting put up against the Hrud multiple times.  

 

 

Also, the Iron Cage kind of penitent crusade doesn't quite teach the same lesson as random decimation.  In a pentitent crusade, the weak and wanting are dead and the strong are left.  There's a degree of individualism in the lesson learned that distinguishes between the wanting and not-wanting.  Decimation obliterates individuality.  A person is executed, whether weak or strong, due to the failures of the unit.  There is nothing personal or individual about decimation.  It's all about scaring the unit into self-purging its weakest links.

[Hyaenidae]

How did it work?!

Because they didn't become the third Missing Legion. Which was the road they were on.

When are the Iron Warriors ever listed as one of the greatest Legions? They aren't one of Guillimans "stalwart few", they aren't ever thought of as the most ferocious fighters like the World Eaters or Space Wolves, they're never seen as one of the most capable fighting forces like the Luna Wolves or the Dark Angels.

Exactly. Unlike the rest of the Legions, there was no longer a drive to be the best individual, only to win as a group. They never became the 'greatest', and I wouldn't argue that point. Only the Ultras and the Sons of Horus could ever claim such a title.

They're seen as siege specialists, and even then they're second to the Imperial Fists.

That's, like, your opinion, dude.

From everything I've seen it looks like Perturabo took a Legion that had received praise and honours from other Primarchs/Legions, decimated them because they weren't the best then failed to lead them to greatness.

He took a dying legion that was grinding itself to dust fighting for personal honour, and turned them into a cohesive unit. Failing to lead them to greatness was not the fault of the Iron Warriors or their Primarch, only the fault of not fighting for laurels like everyone else. Gauging failure based on others successes is unfair, if you rate success by a different standard.

They didn't succeed as a group. The depiction of them in AE, does that look like a Legion that encompasses the bonds of brotherhood to any of you?

The depiction of the Iron Warriors in AE is like the depiction of the Ultramarines in the Uriel Ventris series; the opinion of the author.

An opinion, in both cases, that I don't care for.

Punishing them as a group is fine, but there are more effective ways of doing so than decimation.

That's mass punishment for you. Effectiveness is debatable, when you view everything, including human lives, as a resource to expend to achieve your goal. As an equitable variable, the decimation succeeded because the legion survived.

[Wade Garrett]

If you don't mind my asking, which depictions of the IV do you favor?

 

For instance, when it comes to my Legion I like the original Index Astartes ("our unflagging conviction that we alone can save mankind has seen us marching towards certain destruction but unwilling to take a single step back") and The First Heretic.

[depthcharge12]

Heathens:

I haven't seen the fluff for myself, my (overwhelmingly negative) opinion has been based off what others have posted.

What you're describing sounds like someone took the World Eaters or the Custodians (my individual heroic honor trumps the needs of the group) and hammered teanwork into their heads in the most heavy handed way possible.

Which is a far cry from "My Legion isn't the best. I will execute random Legionaries until it is".

Is this really Wade conceding a point? :P

 

 

Just kidding of course. Heathens statement does better justice to understanding why Perturabo did it rather than "Waah I didn't get the Ultramarines Legion"

 

From what I've been able to read (piecemeal and sometimes blurry...) the Iron Warriors were very spiteful and very anti social in order to receive certain titles and rank. War smiths were very good at what they did and were more like politicking warlords rather than a cohesive fighting force. Because of Perts heavy handed style and attrition, only the toughest, smartest, and most driven Legionaries could become a Warsmith. Even more so it seems than other chapter master level officers.

[Perrin]

How did it work?!

Because they didn't become the third Missing Legion. Which was the road they were on.

>>When are the Iron Warriors ever listed as one of the greatest Legions? They aren't one of Guillimans "stalwart few", they aren't ever thought of as the most ferocious fighters like the World Eaters or Space Wolves, they're never seen as one of the most capable fighting forces like the Luna Wolves or the Dark Angels.

Exactly. Unlike the rest of the Legions, there was no longer a drive to be the best individual, only to win as a group. They never became the 'greatest', and I wouldn't argue that point. Only the Ultras and the Sons of Horus could ever claim such a title.

They're seen as siege specialists, and even then they're second to the Imperial Fists.

That's, like, your opinion, dude.

From everything I've seen it looks like Perturabo took a Legion that had received praise and honours from other Primarchs/Legions, decimated them because they weren't the best then failed to lead them to greatness.

He took a dying legion that was grinding itself to dust fighting for personal honour, and turned them into a cohesive unit. Failing to lead them to greatness was not the fault of the Iron Warriors or their Primarch, only the fault of not fighting for laurels like everyone else. Gauging failure based on others successes is unfair, if you rate success by a different standard.

They didn't succeed as a group. The depiction of them in AE, does that look like a Legion that encompasses the bonds of brotherhood to any of you?

The depiction of the Iron Warriors in AE is like the depiction of the Ultramarines in the Uriel Ventris series; the opinion of the author.

An opinion, in both cases, that I don't care for.

Punishing them as a group is fine, but there are more effective ways of doing so than decimation.

That's mass punishment for you. Effectiveness is debatable, when you view everything, including human lives, as a resource to expend to achieve your goal. As an equitable variable, the decimation succeeded because the legion survived.

Fair point about the Fists dig Though the IW did fail to take the Palace...

Firstly, the "Third Missing Legion" thing, we have no idea what happened to the other two, it isn't fair to say the same would have happened to the IW as that assumes that the Missing Legions destroyed themselves through self-destructive attitudes and strategies. There's also no evidence that the Emperor wouldn't have stepped in before the IW ran themselves into the ground. The EC were nearly destroyed due to geneseed failures, and they were sent to campaign with the LW until they got their strength back. I think it isn't a huge leap of the imagination to assume the same orders would have been given to the IW. Imagine if they got paired with the IF...

From the bits and pieces I've picked up about the Salamanders pre-Vulkan, they were the same. They may have had different circumstances, being one of the 3 special Legions, but they were still destroying themselves before they found Vulkan, who changed their whole ethos to one that wasn't so self-destructive without the need for decimation.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't notice it on my first read of your post Heathens. I dispute that other Legions were more successful because they still had a drive within the Legion to be the best individual. The Ultramarines for instance, there is nothing to give that impression of their personal attitudes, the same for the Fists.

Fair enough that you didn't like AEs depiction of the IW, everyone is entitled to not like certain bits of fluff, but you can't just dismiss it out of hand because it doesn't match your view of the universe.

[GhostMalone]

The iron warriors may not have had the accolades of the "speartip" only sticking at the neck.

Or as blood crazed warriors that left nothing standing or alive.

Or even being the Emperors praetorians.

 

Perturabo made them into soldiers, made them into what the legions were supposed to be.

 

He took any and all jobs, if it was a warfare of attrition and casualty rates it still needed to be done.

 

Look at Gallipoli, the Australian forces had no choice but to take casualties and last man stands because that's what they were ordered to do.

 

Their was no glory no honour no sense.

Only orders to follow.

 

 

 

Perturabo and the iron warriors followed orders.

If they were ordered to garrison duties they would fufill it, if they were ordered to siege duties they fulfilled it.

 

The Emperor & the warmaster never used them to their full potential as adorns sons were more glory hungry and that is why biter resentment arrised.

 

They were always the loyal obedient soldiers that were in the shadow of a legion that was in no way superior or better then themselves. Yet they were treated as lesser beings for it

[Tyrannicide]

One thing I've taken away from book 3 is that FW has shifted the Imperial Fists from being "siege specialists" (a veeery broad term to begin with), into the role of the conqueror. They knock down empires and build them back up twice as strong from the blood soaked soil. And they don't stop. The Fists are crusaders, and they're good at it. They have the largest fleet and excel in void operations more so than any other Legion it seems. The Fists still have siege expertise on their resume, but they're not as one-dimensional. 

 

The Iron Warriors will do any task that comes their way. They may not be the best, but before the Heresy, they are one of your go to guys when asked to crack open the hard shells. No questions asked. Who needs to be killed, what system needs garrisoning, who's boots need the crap cleaned off, etc. They march together as an unrelenting wall of iron beneath the rainfall of a hundred thousand screaming shells.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, the Emperor didn't step in when the XII hammered crazy machines into their heads, or when the VIII went absolutely bat:cuss insane in a more conventional manner.

 

Why would the IV be an exception?

[FunkyMonkey]

I don't see where this "fail to take the Imperial Palace" point is coming from.  They helped breach the walls, and the Chaos forces were at the Eternity Gate.  In all likelihood, the Chaos forces would have breached into the throne room before having loyalist reinforcements arrive from behind.  Sieges take time for success, and it's not Perturabo's fault that Horus miscalculated the time tables.  

 

I also never understood why if Daemons could tell Erebus the loyalists were coming through the Warp soon, Chaos forces in the maeterium and immaeterium couldn't work on some ritual to delay them.  Obviously chaos forces couldn't attack them directly because of the Gellar fields, but they could sure as heck mess around with the warp sight of the Astropaths, especially since the Word Bearers had already summoned daemons on Terra and were in a position to summon something that can at least partially obscure the Astronomican.

[Greyall]

My disagreement with Perturabo's measures is reality-based, of course it is in line with his and the Legion's demeanour. It also helps explain why they were, at best, discreet among the Legions. At worst, they were looked down upon. What they really were, though, were tools. And while tools are extremely useful, they're rarely acknowledged.

[GhostMalone]

Because they were still acting coherently and other then hunting vaingloriously on the battlefield weren't showing any other signs of psychotic degradation.

 

 

Angron was needed for morale, the warhounds needed their father and found a broken god, that then said god gave his sons a way to bond.

 

The emperor did forbid the use of the nails but it was to little to late.

 

My disagreement with Perturabo's measures is reality-based, of course it is in line with his and the Legion's demeanour. It also helps explain why they were, at best, discreet among the Legions. At worst, they were looked down upon. What they really were, though, were tools. And while tools are extremely useful, they're rarely acknowledged.

And the slightest bit of gratitude would have saved them from the hate that bitterness and pride breed

[Hyaenidae]

If you don't mind my asking, which depictions of the IV do you favor?

My favorite? This is...

This piece of art speaks a million words I could never give voice to. This is the Iron Warriors, in my mind. Grim, cold, but bound to each other, no matter the losses or the opinions of their cousins. Victory through fidelity.

For instance, when it comes to my Legion I like the original Index Astartes ("our unflagging conviction that we alone can save mankind has seen us marching towards certain destruction but unwilling to take a single step back") and The First Heretic.

The IA and the new fluff, blended. I look at FW's work as the view of the old Imperium, through the biased eyes of an imperial historian. The Iron Within short helps clarify many misconceptions about the Iron Warriors mindset, in my mind, though Dantioch is still a dirty loyalist. :P

Fair point about the Fists dig Though the IW did fail to take the Palace...

Sorry, I can't hear you over the Eternity Gate collapsing.... :P

Firstly, the "Third Missing Legion" thing, we have no idea what happened to the other two, it isn't fair to say the same would have happened to the IW as that assumes that the Missing Legions destroyed themselves through self-destructive attitudes and strategies.

Fair, but not my point. The IV Legion nearly died, which would have made them another missing legion, no matter the way they died.

There's also no evidence that the Emperor wouldn't have stepped in before the IW ran themselves into the ground. The EC were nearly destroyed due to geneseed failures, and they were sent to campaign with the LW until they got their strength back.

The EC still almost died, as per the FW fluff. No one would doubt their honour, or tell them to back down and recoup their losses. The Emp was going to let them die, and only the finding of Fulgrim saved them.

I think it isn't a huge leap of the imagination to assume the same orders would have been given to the IW. Imagine if they got paired with the IF...

...and those orders to back down would have never came, for the same reasons. Also, no need to be offensive and try to pair the IV with the Fists... :P

From the bits and pieces I've picked up about the Salamanders pre-Vulkan, they were the same. They may have had different circumstances, being one of the 3 special Legions, but they were still destroying themselves before they found Vulkan, who changed their whole ethos to one that wasn't so self-destructive without the need for decimation.

But their mindset was different. One single answer doesn't solve every question, thus why politicians and lawyers exist.

[Greyall]

We'll probably never know which came first: the ingratitude or the cold, sometimes sociopathic attitude. Every Legion made sacrifices and, in one way or another, threw themselves at the jaws of enemies. A good few of the other Legions were objectively harder to witness in battle or be around than the Iron Warriors (the Luna Wolves, for example, or even the Death Guard). Yet they still got more laurels and appreciation.

 

Also, the shock that Terra displayed at Perty's executions was due to incomprehension, since the Legion was seen as a great asset.

[SFH]

Moving away from the decimation...What did the fluff say about their organization? Hhow were Grand Companies set up? What were the numbers in each? And what about Warsmiths? Were they added before or after finding Perturabo?