Iron Warrior info from book 3?

[b1soul]

Perturabo is easily the smartest Primarch this side of Magnus

 

Oh please, we all know that the smartest primarch by leaps and bounds is Alpharius. Space marines are a reflection of their primarchs, and each Alpha Legionnaire is worth 1,000 marines of any other legion because 1 Alpha Legionnaire is all it takes to destroy a whole loyalist chapter via super-intelligent scheming. 

[Hyaenidae]

EDIT: Sorry, didn't notice it on my first read of your post Heathens. I dispute that other Legions were more successful because they still had a drive within the Legion to be the best individual. The Ultramarines for instance, there is nothing to give that impression of their personal attitudes, the same for the Fists.

I'd disagree there, as in both the UM and IF Legions, their fathers gave many members of their legions mighty honours. Sigismund is a beautiful example. They were humble about their accomplishments, but honoured they were as individuals.

 

Fair enough that you didn't like AEs depiction of the IW, everyone is entitled to not like certain bits of fluff, but you can't just dismiss it out of hand because it doesn't match your view of the universe.

My bad, I didn't mean to give that impression. I accept that it is a part of their culture, and am not dismissing it, but I still don't care for it. TO be fair, Cadras Grendel did drag his commander out of an EC frat party out of fidelity and brotherhood, so that's solid.

 

There, I conceded a point. Now stop bringing up AE.  :P

[Greyall]

Slightly out of topic, but a quick one - where's your avatar from, Heathens? That the loyalist IW character?

[Hyaenidae]

Yes sir. Even as a loyalist dog, he looked too awesome to pass up.  :P

[b1soul]

And yet the Roman military is still looked at one of the top fighting forces in history. So whose dumber, the man who uses something proven to work, or the man who calls it stupid?

 

Yeah the Romans did it and yeah the Romans had a good military...but did they have such a fine military despite decimation or because of decimation? 

 

For all we know, the Roman army might have performed even better had decimation never been employed. We have to look at what decimation actually is...

 

Does it punish the incompetent while rewarding the competent? No, it randomly kills people regardless of whether they're at fault. 

 

What benefit does it have? You could argue that it makes each (Roman) legion view itself as a single body punishable as a single body.

 

Would this "benefit" outweigh the loss of morale and manpower? Probably not. That's why decimation was incredibly rare and even when it was employed, it might have hurt more than it helped.

 

As for the Iron Warriors, Is there any evidence in the text that Perturabo's decimation of his legion somehow galvanised it to become a better fighting force? It doesn't sound like it. The decimation comes off as more of an expression of Perturabo's rather twisted personality.    

[b1soul]

 Also the threat of group sanction is way more convincing that a single execution.

 

On the contrary, you could just as easily argue that it would have a de-motivating factor. If you're incompetent, you might get away with it because the execution victims are chosen by random lot...

[Greyall]

Yes sir. Even as a loyalist dog, he looked too awesome to pass up.

That's one ugly human being...I hope he put the fear in the Alphas =)

[Hyaenidae]

Would this "benefit" outweigh the loss of morale and manpower? Probably not. That's why decimation was incredibly rare and even when it was employed, it might have hurt more than it helped.

Considering the mindset of the IV Legion of old, the benefit outweighed the losses, considering that the Legion was about to die off.

As for the Iron Warriors, Is there any evidence in the text that Perturabo's decimation of his legion somehow galvanised it to become a better fighting force? It doesn't sound like it. The decimation comes off as more of an expression of Perturabo's rather twisted personality.

Again, interpretation based off of a biased Imperial historian after the heresy.

Also the threat of group sanction is way more convincing that a single execution.

On the contrary, you could just as easily argue that it would have a de-motivating factor. If you're incompetent, you might get away with it because the execution victims are chosen by random lot...

This is a circular argument that will never end.

Yes sir. Even as a loyalist dog, he looked too awesome to pass up.

That's one ugly human being...I hope he put the fear in the Alphas =)

I think he's adorable. See, he's smiling! Permanently....

[b1soul]

 

Would this "benefit" outweigh the loss of morale and manpower? Probably not. That's why decimation was incredibly rare and even when it was employed, it might have hurt more than it helped.

Considering the mindset of the IV Legion of old, the benefit outweighed the losses, considering that the Legion was about to die off.

 

There's really know proof of whether the benefit outweighed the cost. Is killing a random 10% of your legion really the best way to save it from extinction? I'm not convinced at all. Don't get me wrong...this is a great piece of fluff, but I think the decimation hurt more than it helped. 

 

1000heathens said: This is a circular argument that will never end.

 

Well yes, that's my point. To say that random decimation would definitely be a more galvanising form of punishment is over-simplistic. It would be very hard to predict whether random decimation ends up motivating or de-motivating a fighting force. IMO, the latter is more likely. 

[depthcharge12]

 

Yes sir. Even as a loyalist dog, he looked too awesome to pass up.  :P

 

That's one ugly human being...I hope he put the fear in the Alphas =)

 

I think he's adorable. See, he's smiling! Permanently....

 

 

He looks like the astartes version of a certain Tom Beringer character....

[Hyaenidae]

 

 

 

 

Would this "benefit" outweigh the loss of morale and manpower? Probably not. That's why decimation was incredibly rare and even when it was employed, it might have hurt more than it helped.

Considering the mindset of the IV Legion of old, the benefit outweighed the losses, considering that the Legion was about to die off.

 

There's really know proof of whether the benefit outweighed the cost. Is killing a random 10% of your legion really the best way to save it from extinction? I'm not convinced at all. Don't get me wrong...this is a great piece of fluff, but I think the decimation hurt more than it helped. 

And it could be argued the Iron Cage was not such a solid idea either. Or creating an Imperium Secundus. Or ditching your Legion and raising nine shades of hell throughout Ultramar. Or hammering violence-inducing machines into your son's skulls, though you know they are going to kill them. Or wearing robes and jump packs at the same time. Or listening to aliens about the course of a human civil war. Or trusting the words of a daemon about how awesome Gods are. Or....

 

Logic in 30k/40k is illogical. *shrug* I'm just rolling with the punches, brother, and lovin' the roller coaster ride.  :)

 

 

1000heathens said: This is a circular argument that will never end.

 

Well yes, that's my point. To say that random decimation would definitely be a more galvanising form of punishment is over-simplistic. It would be very hard to predict whether random decimation ends up motivating or de-motivating a fighting force. IMO, the latter is more likely. 

 

And if I was a Legionary of the Iron Warriors, I'd say the former. All good, man.

[incinerator950]

Sneaky sneaky, sir.... caught me while I was typing.

Perturbo decimation of his own legion confirms him a failure in my eyes. Suitably grim dark and stupid.

Not to claim he was meant to lead the Imperium, and I can agree that he and many other primarchs are failures.... but why stupid?

because use of a time-honored tradition of punishment equals stupid. Apparently.

Because use of a time-honored stupid punishment in which death is dispensed according to chance and not incompetence equals stupid. Most definitely.

The random chance is the entire point of the decimation. The unit, as a whole, is punished. The unit, as a whole, is at fault, so everyone in the unit has a nominally equal chance of being punished. The idea that you could randomly be killed for the failings of another binds the unit together and causes the warriors of the unit to constantly police one another. Discipline shoots up overnight as offenders and slackers would be beaten into shape by their battle brothers. I wouldn't say it's the most effective method of building unit cohesion, and without a doubt it kills morale, but it definitely has its merits.

Minus beating to death part, that is exactly how the military punishes on a group level. Barring obvious infractions of singular nature, but I don

I agree with perrin.

Decimation is stupid because. Its arbitrary. Its wasteful. And it essentially demonstrates you can't motivate your men except with the random threat of death.

A leader who thought decimation was a good idea should instead give himself a time period say a few years to shape up their legion and make them the "best" and if he fails takes his stupidity and inferiority to the grave via meltagun to the face or something. Put his own life on the line. I could atleast respect that.

Pert is a chump. Worst Primarch ever. At least Angron has an excuse.

I try not to fault characters after BL warps them. In the case of calling Pertuabo the worst Primarch ever, he's inflicted grievous losses on the Imperium, successfully kept his Legion from fragmenting like the World Eaters or Emperor's Children, and his forces were the ones who coordinated breaking open the Emperor's Palace. Not to mention he became a Demon Prince instead of dying like Horus, Alpharius, Curze, Gulliman, etc.

I think the author decided to use Decimation as a point that Pertuabo at one point wanted his Legion to function higher by having itself sorted out, be more ruthless, be more aggressive while maintaining his maddening precision. It's effective, even from a brutal standpoint. Given the fact that this is the far future where the Emperor kidnaps children and warriors to make armies of genetically enhanced warriors, I'd say this is actually light compared to everything from 31k-41k. I don't personally condone it, being on the receiving end of group punishment in the military, but it worked for his ends I guess.

[Wade Garrett]

Considering that Medengard is one endless fratricidal free for all, where Warsmiths old and new endlessly lay siege to and are besieged by their neighbors, ( Dead Sky, Black Sun ) calling the post Heresy IV Legion unified is stretching the meaning of the word.

 

And those guys looked like pillars of competence and loyalty compared to the skaven in power armor Iron Warriors in Siege of Castellax .

[Hyaenidae]

That's what happens when Chaos seeps in. You lose control.

 

Prior to their corruption and Perty ascending, the Iron Warriors had an entire empire centered around Olympia, which forced the loyalists into a grindfest they couldn't afford during the Scouring. Fidelity and unity has it's benefits.

[Kol Saresk]

The Imperial Fists were only ever noted(until now) for being urban warfare specialists. This gave them a secondary knowledge of siegecraft as they could build something to defend against how they would attack it. It has never been said that they topped the Iron warriors as siege specialists.

 

In fact, one could argue that since the Emperor took the Imperial Fists, he could afford to lose them from the frontlines, but he could not afford to lose the Iron Warriors. And that was even after Olympia IIRC. Says something about how high he regarded their siegecraft.

[HaSY]

Grand Battalion (similar to Chapter) usually comprises 1000 marines with very substantial armour, artillery and logistical support. *considered more than other Legions in that level.
Straight away send initiate to warzone during first years of service, recruitment and reinforcement; in other words, continuous supply of initiates to allow for higher than standard rate of attrition. In extreme cases, Grand Battalion reached 4000 marines.

Below this strategic level : organisation said to be highly stratified but still equally pragmatic and varied as the deployments and operations demanded
Common divisions known as Cohorts or Grand Companies ( heavily mechanised and reinforced units comprising 3 to 5 line companies of Legionaries and their attendant human auxillary troops, Mechanicum detachment and integrated support structures.

Below this are Line company and Armour Century  ( 100 Legionaries and 20-50 armour units)

All across Legion's grand battalion are seeded elements of Tyranthikos ( Dominators) - veteran cores of line breaker and assaulters that survived desperate and bloody sieges to receive the name and foremost proponent of Terminator Armor

Every level, Iron Warriors are well-equipped, having greater amounts of Terminator Armor and munition reserves compared to other legions( said to exceed several legions combined)

Each Iron Warrior of course gt good technical aptitude; love to customize and enhance their equipments
Loves lascannons for anti armour and mk3 armor for siege assault units. Emphasis on reliability and ease of repair for mass deployments and reserve supplies for long campaigns 

Mere aesthetic damage to wargear is deemed to be irrelevant and while a Grand Battalion's muster might see rank upon rank of glittering  steel presented for Warsmith's inspection, a war zone's privation would see a Iron Warrior's armour increasingly blooded,burned and battered over its duration, attended to only to restore functionality until victory was achieved.

 

 

Iron Warriors use all kinds of armoured vehicles and artillery with tactical emphasis on Land Raiders, Typhons, Stormblades, Mastodon and they also employed very large numbers of lesser classes such as Rhinos, Predators and Basilisks; they are considered disposable because they can replace them easily as the production permanently geared to their service. They operate unusual variants such as Cerberus, Scorpius and Thunderstrike tanks in large numbers. They have the largest armour reserve and ordnance capacity of any Legions of Great Crusade.

Stor-bezashk- master of destruction as their siegemasters commanded Mechanicum's Ordo Reductor and direct battlefield control of atomic shells, phosphex reserves and gravitic munitions and power of life and death over Legionaries assigned as punishment to Destroyers cadre.
Stor-bezashk also a breaking force its own right and broken into component parts as specialised reinforcement for Grand Battalions.

Perturabo's ideal Iron Warriors : Integrated, disciplined and unstoppable aggressive force. Mastered warfare both in attack and defence.

Calculated savagery to describe Iron Warriors.

Bombardments designed to overwhelm and shatter 
Their assaults are faultlessly choreographed exercises in armoured tactics and manoeuver suppored by remorseless infantry advances...
Bloody hand to hand combat in hateful ferocity matches World Eaters and Dark Angels. Yet, their last extreme violence can be checked with turn of a switch; the inhuman discipline instilled by Perturabo.

Glory and honour belongs to Legion, not individual. Iron Warriors can be expected to serve in several specializations. Warsmiths not just to excel but to mould the battlefields.


At the outbreak of Horus Heresy, estimated strength between 150k and 180k.
- lower estimates could be wrong due to increased acceleration in recruitment and shipbuilding
Substantial numbers of capital ships. (~100)

   

 
 

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

After reading the fluff on the IV Legion, I'm struck by something - although the Iron Warriors are constantly compared to the Imperial Fists, Extermination actually makes them seem more similar to the Iron Hands in my opinion:

*Loads of tanks - okay, the IW might have a large number of artillery units as part of this, but both are competing for most heavily mechanized Legion

*Technology - I must admit, I'd always assumed the IWs prefered more basic, reliable technology over more esoteric, less durable stuff - as in, they'd prefer projectile weapons over energy weapons - but, apparently, they're only second to the IHs in technological prowess

*Innovation - I'd always thought the X pretty much had a monopoly on developing their own tech, but apparently the IWs are pretty good at this too - I mean, they even make their own cybernetica

*Relation with the Mechanicum - although parts of the Mechanicum are noted as distrusting the IWs, they seem to be pretty close, only really differing from the way the X interact with the Mechanicum in the fact they completely disregard the Cult Mechanicus beliefs, which are an inherited part of Medusan culture

*Relation with the Imperial Army - yep, both basically use them as fleshy, disposable tools

 

I'd be interested in the future to see how the IV & X Legions interacted - I'd imagine their styles of war would go together remarkably well, although I doubt Perturabo & Ferrus would be great buddies, being intolerable & intolerant respectively

[Greyall]

The only similarity with Dorn's boys, really, is their aptitude for siege warfare, the Iron Hands were more of an 'open battlefield'-Legion.

 

Perturabo and Ferrus Manus might've gotten along (out of respect, if nothing else), but they were both specialized in shunning human contact. Also, I'm not sure Perty would cope well with Ferrus' competitiveness.

[HaSY]

While IH is quite close to mechanicum, IW is not bad too as they do offer protection to certain renegade cults within mechanicum.

 

In angel extrrminatus, ferus n perturabo r cold as perturabo who said to have silver eyes correct me if im wrong, ask ferus about his silver hands hoping to get some common ground conversation but ferus stared at him n walked away.

 

I always thought these two could be best friends...

[Greyall]

Ferrus is the one with the silver eyes, mate.

 

And that's awkwardness at its best, lol. I can imagine how coldly Ferrus might've reacted to such a personal question.

[HaSY]

Haha aye silver eyes n hands...

Perturabo is closest to Horus

He dont have friends...

[Wade Garrett]

That's what happens when Chaos seeps in. You lose control.

 

Prior to their corruption and Perty ascending, the Iron Warriors had an entire empire centered around Olympia, which forced the loyalists into a grindfest they couldn't afford during the Scouring. Fidelity and unity has it's benefits.

Fair enough on both counts.

 

Again, using my favorite faction as an example, the Dark Disciple trilogy had precisely two Word Bearers worthy of the name (Sabtec of the 13th Coterie and the Warmonger) and a bunch of backstabbing weasels who throw useful resources away to soothe their own bloated egos.

 

So I am cognizant that I'm throwing rocks from a glass house when I criticize the IV.

[Deadman Wade]

It definitely has its effects would be a better way to state it, I'd say.

 

Is a group in which you're feeling constantly policed and under pressure better than one in which there's healthy competition between members, a certain pride in being first (individually and collectively) and a collective goal larger than 'I mustn' make any mistakes'?

 

When you add such practices as shooting the messenger (in 'The Crimson Fist'), it's easy to see Perturabo didn't exactly foster a high-demand team so much as a 'every man for himself' environment. Sure, Iron Warriors worked together as cogs in a mechanism, but they were also incredibly backstabbing and sabotaged each others' ascension. It produces results, no doubt, but put bitterness as one of the Legion's fuel sources, which led to hubris, false assumptions and, ultimately, being underdogs to the Imperial Fists and defeats as in Phall.

 

The subtle difference to the Imperial Fists - producing the good kind of pride - wasn't so subtle after all. The Iron's were effective - but nobody gave a damn. When you act as an underdog, you get treated likewise, often.

Well, after Horus Heresy Iron Warriors got their rematch against Imperial Fists and defeated them. So IW and Perturabo aren't in any way inferior to other Legions, I'd even say that IW are better than most.

[Greyall]

I meant in terms of reputation or how they'd go down in history had the Heresy not happened. If it was an impartial account, it'd probably state that they had their share of unfair treatment, but also how much their darkish personalities contributed for that.

[HaSY]

Guilliman should have let Dorn n Perturabo destroy each other in iron cage.