Iron Warrior info from book 3?

[Karthak]

Any mention of how the IVth purged their loyalists (the guys at Paramar had been isolated from the Legion for a long time, IIRC)?

[DarKnight]

Call it beating a dead horse, if you will re: the decimation, but if you've ever been a part of a team you know group punishment is a way of making the bond greater. It's not about the person that is killed (Astartes are made to serve) it's about the remaining warriors that have to carry out the act being bonded as well as trying their damnest to never have to do something like that ever again. You're not going to allow your brother to be lax in their duties if you have the possible threat of that, but if you don't see it that way no harm no foul.

[Perrin]

I'm going to bow out of the decimation discussion, Heathens has outdebated me, I'm even starting to come around to supporting decimation the treacherous dog.

This a very interesting topic though.

Decimation would make more sense if it was an Imperial Army unit. Commissars already execute soldiers for minor infractions, I actually think they'd see only killing 10% of a failing regiment as being merciful. One of the reasons the Romans stopped using decimation was the increased professionalism of the army and the decrease in numbers of conscripts and slaves.

[Vesper]

Guilliman should have let Dorn n Perturabo destroy each other in iron cage.

Maybe he chose not to because one wasn't getting destroyed at all.

[Greyall]

I'm still not buying that it was a complete, unredeemable defeat for the Imperial Fists. The Imperial side of the Iron Cage clearly reads like propaganda, but it's not like Chaos doesn't use it as well. The truth will be somewhere in the middle - though the Imperial losses are undeniable.

[Scyld Fireblade]

Sneaky sneaky, sir.... caught me while I was typing.

Perturbo decimation of his own legion confirms him a failure in my eyes. Suitably grim dark and stupid.

Not to claim he was meant to lead the Imperium, and I can agree that he and many other primarchs are failures.... but why stupid?

because use of a time-honored tradition of punishment equals stupid. Apparently.

Because use of a time-honored stupid punishment in which death is dispensed according to chance and not incompetence equals stupid. Most definitely.

And yet the Roman military is still looked at one of the top fighting forces in history. So whose dumber, the man who uses something proven to work, or the man who calls it stupid?

Except the Romans lost entire legions in Scotland, Germany, and Persia. In 2 of those cases to foes they considered primitives.

[HaSY]

 

 

Guilliman should have let Dorn n Perturabo destroy each other in iron cage.

Maybe he chose not to because one wasn't getting destroyed at all.

I understand where you are getting here and I would agree with you.

 

It is just what was written in the codex regarding d iron cage.

[DarKnight]

I could see Pyrrhic victory at best for the Fists, you guys aren't giving the IW enough credit in my opinion. Dorn purposely threw his men into the teeth of those defenses, and bled for every inch of ground they earned. I know the IA spun the IF portion of the article by saying the IW "lacked the faith" to completely destroy the Fists, but they didn't have to. They more than decimated Dorn's Legion, and Perturabo gained daemon prince status for it, plus a loyal Legion was out of the field for however long in order to resupply and rearm. At MOST I'd credit it a 60/40 IW victory

[Wade Garrett]

The Iron Warriors aren't the ones described as "taking cover behind the bodies of their fallen battle brothers" and fighting with their combat knives because they were out of ammunition.

[Perrin]

I'd go with either a stalemate or an IW victory. The quote WG posted above says it all really, as well as the reason Dorn attacked was because he was trying to punish himself and his Legion over the death of the Emperor.

With the IFs new emphasis on fleet warfare, and with the Ultramarines contingent showing up to help, I do wonder how the Iron Warriors managed to escape the planet after Dorn had pulled back.

It could have been like the famous Indiana Jones scene, sword vs gun. Dorn shows up, Perturabo has built this huge fortress and is inviting Dorn to attack it, then Dorn brings up his fleet and destroys the planet from orbit

[Deadman Wade]

I'm still not buying that it was a complete, unredeemable defeat for the Imperial Fists. The Imperial side of the Iron Cage clearly reads like propaganda, but it's not like Chaos doesn't use it as well. The truth will be somewhere in the middle - though the Imperial losses are undeniable.

This was a victory big enough for Perturabo to ascend to deamonhood. Fists were tricked, trapped, and massacred by Iron Warriors, their fleet was defeated, and they were saved only by Ultramarines.

 

 

With the IFs new emphasis on fleet warfare, and with the Ultramarines contingent showing up to help, I do wonder how the Iron Warriors managed to escape the planet after Dorn had pulled back.

Iron Warriors detonated the weapon silos causing interference in Fist's communications, boarded their ships and scattered their fleet.

[Kol Saresk]

Sneaky sneaky, sir.... caught me while I was typing.

Perturbo decimation of his own legion confirms him a failure in my eyes. Suitably grim dark and stupid.

Not to claim he was meant to lead the Imperium, and I can agree that he and many other primarchs are failures.... but why stupid?

because use of a time-honored tradition of punishment equals stupid. Apparently.

Because use of a time-honored stupid punishment in which death is dispensed according to chance and not incompetence equals stupid. Most definitely.

And yet the Roman military is still looked at one of the top fighting forces in history. So whose dumber, the man who uses something proven to work, or the man who calls it stupid?

Except the Romans lost entire legions in Scotland, Germany, and Persia. In 2 of those cases to foes they considered primitives.

And? Even Alexander the Great lost troops.

[Hyrion]

Sneaky sneaky, sir.... caught me while I was typing.

Perturbo decimation of his own legion confirms him a failure in my eyes. Suitably grim dark and stupid.

Not to claim he was meant to lead the Imperium, and I can agree that he and many other primarchs are failures.... but why stupid?

because use of a time-honored tradition of punishment equals stupid. Apparently.

Because use of a time-honored stupid punishment in which death is dispensed according to chance and not incompetence equals stupid. Most definitely.

And yet the Roman military is still looked at one of the top fighting forces in history. So whose dumber, the man who uses something proven to work, or the man who calls it stupid?

Except the Romans lost entire legions in Scotland, Germany, and Persia. In 2 of those cases to foes they considered primitives.

well... that they were considered primitives has no value because you can't compare cultural aspects toward military aspects. the lost legions (3 of them) of varus were not beaten in in an open field battle they were raided for about a week or longer. also kalkriese played well for the lighter armed troops of arminius. the troops of arminius where inferior in every aspect towards the roman legions. they raided them because they knew it and all this we know because of shoenails.

if they would have fought in open battle the romans would have won because the cherusci were just primitives.

[Hyrion]

also the romans only won the punic wars because they turned sea battles into land battles... they forced their fighting style onto their enemies. and if you have to compare it to 40k, losing legions is like losing companys or... expedition fleets. somthing we withnessed on murder. nothing big, just a part of war

[Wade Garrett]

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over all the ruckus that inferior barbarian Alaric is causing while he and his hairy tribesmen burn Rome to the ground.

[Kol Saresk]

 

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over all the ruckus that inferior barbarian Alaric is causing while he and his hairy tribesmen burn Rome to the ground.

That's what happens when a highly efficient fighting force that relied on strict discipline no longer has that discipline. They break and fall apart. Sort of like Angel Exterminatus.

[Hyrion]

what a shame that they are barbaians no longer, because its not classical antiquity anymore instead it's early middle ages...

[depthcharge12]

Yes there was much in fighting between the generals and their forces stopped consisting of a motivated roman citizen population. Their professional military began to become filled with mercenaries and the dregs of society who couldn't buy land. So it's no surprise that some hairy barbarians who were strong physically and mentally and had a vested interest in plunder would topple under motivated roman soldiers who could care less if the people who screwed them over in Rome died.

 

 

Motivation and "why we fight" is a big role in an effective military. Case in point being freedom fighters. Also is why the American military loves to weed out people during indoc by punishing as a group rather than individuals. Doesn't matter if the people who can shoot the best or run the best get scared and dropped out because they can't handle mental and physical stress.

 

Take for example early Nazi propaganda which has evolved our marketing strategies. Make people that feel individualistic uncomfortable and needing to conform to a norm, for if they stay that way, then they are evil to our society and threaten our way of being.

 

 

Doesn't matter if pert kills off potential good marines at random. He has plenty more and the strongest/smartest will rise to the top in the vacuum.

[Wade Garrett]

what a shame that they are barbaians no longer, because its not classical antiquity anymore instead it's early middle ages...

So...Arminus's men were barbarians solely because they lived in Antiquity. But solely by existing past (insert arbitrary date here) the Goths, Visigoths, et al became Not-Barbarians.

 

Ummm?

[Adra'Melek]

Yes there was much in fighting between the generals and their forces stopped consisting of a motivated roman citizen population. Their professional military began to become filled with mercenaries and the dregs of society who couldn't buy land. So it's no surprise that some hairy barbarians who were strong physically and mentally and had a vested interest in plunder would topple under motivated roman soldiers who could care less if the people who screwed them over in Rome died.

Motivation and "why we fight" is a big role in an effective military. Case in point being freedom fighters. Also is why the American military loves to weed out people during indoc by punishing as a group rather than individuals. Doesn't matter if the people who can shoot the best or run the best get scared and dropped out because they can't handle mental and physical stress.

Take for example early Nazi propaganda which has evolved our marketing strategies. Make people that feel individualistic uncomfortable and needing to conform to a norm, for if they stay that way, then they are evil to our society and threaten our way of being.

Doesn't matter if pert kills off potential good marines at random. He has plenty more and the strongest/smartest will rise to the top in the vacuum.

Unless they drew the short straw of course.

[Visitor13]

Thunor's_Hammer beat me to the bottom line.

 

Iron Warrior 1: Man, so sorry I have to kill you. Nothing personal, you''ve always been a friend. But the Primarch's orders are what they are.

Iron Warrior 2: Iron within, iron without!

IW 1: Indeed. Say, we still have some time, so could you remind me which way up you bury a mine?

IW 2: ... what type of mine?

IW 1: Whoah dude, you mean there's more than one?

IW 2: Kill me now.

 

 

Perturabo: We are gathered here to witness the promotions of exceptional warriors. Come forward, Ghaltak!

*nothing happens*

Perturabo: Ghaltak! You are to come forward now!

Random IW Officer: My lord, if I may...

Perturabo: What?

Random IW Officer: Ghaltak's dead.

Perturabo: What? How?

Random IW Officer: ... friendly fire, my lord.

 

 

The Romans had men to spare most of the time. Whereas Astartes, especially Astartes specialists, are an expensive asset, and to be treated as such. Unless your name is Angron and tactics is something that makes your headache worse. 

[depthcharge12]

 

Yes there was much in fighting between the generals and their forces stopped consisting of a motivated roman citizen population. Their professional military began to become filled with mercenaries and the dregs of society who couldn't buy land. So it's no surprise that some hairy barbarians who were strong physically and mentally and had a vested interest in plunder would topple under motivated roman soldiers who could care less if the people who screwed them over in Rome died.

Motivation and "why we fight" is a big role in an effective military. Case in point being freedom fighters. Also is why the American military loves to weed out people during indoc by punishing as a group rather than individuals. Doesn't matter if the people who can shoot the best or run the best get scared and dropped out because they can't handle mental and physical stress.

Take for example early Nazi propaganda which has evolved our marketing strategies. Make people that feel individualistic uncomfortable and needing to conform to a norm, for if they stay that way, then they are evil to our society and threaten our way of being.

Doesn't matter if pert kills off potential good marines at random. He has plenty more and the strongest/smartest will rise to the top in the vacuum.

Unless they drew the short straw of course.

Don't want to come across as a jerk here, but even though it may kill off some of the better marines, there are still plenty others that will rise to the occasion and develop their talents to become as good or if not better than their predecessors.

 

Saul Tarvitz is a good example.

[Hyrion]

 

what a shame that they are barbaians no longer, because its not classical antiquity anymore instead it's early middle ages...

So...Arminus's men were barbarians solely because they lived in Antiquity. But solely by existing past (insert arbitrary date here) the Goths, Visigoths, et al became Not-Barbarians.

 

Ummm?

ever thought about anything in cultural history? ever thought that anything could change in 450 years?

just think about what someone would think about us today in 450 years from now

[lokkorex]

just to clarify, the estimated strength of the 4th legion at the beginning of the heresy was 150,000 to 180,000 legionnaires.

[Adra'Melek]

 

 

Unless they drew the short straw of course.

Don't want to come across as a jerk here, but even though it may kill off some of the better marines, there are still plenty others that will rise to the occasion and develop their talents to become as good or if not better than their predecessors.

 

Saul Tarvitz is a good example.

 

Not a jerk at all. And I have no idea the effectiveness or counter-effectiveness of decimation or even group punishment. I doubt these are things double blind trials are (or can be) performed on (not sure if you'd get ethics approval these days for decimation).

 

I haven't even read the book to know what actually happened. But there would have been a 1 in 10 chance that Tarvitz would have been killed.  Killing off the bottom 10% would be more 'reasonable' I would think (based on little knowledge)