Iron Warrior info from book 3?

[depthcharge12]

 

 

 

 

 

Unless they drew the short straw of course.

Don't want to come across as a jerk here, but even though it may kill off some of the better marines, there are still plenty others that will rise to the occasion and develop their talents to become as good or if not better than their predecessors.

Saul Tarvitz is a good example.

 

Not a jerk at all. And I have no idea the effectiveness or counter-effectiveness of decimation or even group punishment. I doubt these are things double blind trials are (or can be) performed on (not sure if you'd get ethics approval these days for decimation).

 

I haven't even read the book to know what actually happened. But there would have been a 1 in 10 chance that Tarvitz would have been killed.  Killing off the bottom 10% would be more 'reasonable' I would think (based on little knowledge)

 

My point was just that in removing Tarvitz from his superiors, the traitors (trying to use this as an analog to describe what removing a smarter person or one in charge would do), he not only coordinates all the loyalists into seeking cover, but also sets up a planned defense that repulses all attacks and even primarch and high commander level strategic intellect.

 

 

Tarvitz was rated never to get above the rank of a line captain, yet when his superiors and so called betters are removed from his chain of command, he picks up the mantle and is quite a better strategist with what he has.

 

 

Now I agree too that double blind tests to research decimation are incredibly hard to do, not to mention unethical. But we can make a pretty good hypothesis as to what happens with what we know of human emotion, stress, and psychology.

 

 

What I'm also trying to get at is what others before have mentioned, the military polices it's own because consequences are dire for all involved. Have you watched Full Metal Jacket? Good example of what happens.

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

 

 

 

what a shame that they are barbaians no longer, because its not classical antiquity anymore instead it's early middle ages...

So...Arminus's men were barbarians solely because they lived in Antiquity. But solely by existing past (insert arbitrary date here) the Goths, Visigoths, et al became Not-Barbarians.

 

Ummm?

ever thought about anything in cultural history? ever thought that anything could change in 450 years?

just think about what someone would think about us today in 450 years from now

Or I won't. Because that has no bearing on the current discussion.

 

Dramatic upheavals in culture and technology are a modern thing, back in the days of yore matters where quite different.

 

The legions of Scipio Africanus would have managed just fine had they been time warped either ahead to the wars of the Byzantines, or backwards to the battles of Alexander.

 

On the other hand, imagine sending the Army of Northern Virginia onto a 1965 battlefield.

 

Or a mechanized detachment of the Red Army to Borodino.

[Adra'Melek]

Tarvitz was a First Captain at Isstvan, which is given as an example of Praetor (alongside Chapter Masters). Just below the level of Lord Commander I believe.

 

(Dramatis Personae - FotE; Praetor Unit Description - Betrayal) 

 

EDIT: This is largely irrelevant to your point. As I said, I don't know about the actual impact, and would really like to guess, on modern military forces, never mind futuristic super-soldiers.

[depthcharge12]

Tarvitz was a First Captain at Isstvan, which is given as an example of Praetor (alongside Chapter Masters). Just below the level of Lord Commander I believe.

 

(Dramatis Personae - FotE; Praetor Unit Description - Betrayal) 

In Horus rising he was.

 

But in Fulgrim he was just a line captain. The two authors didn't meet to agree upon it or it was mixed up. And that's what also made it better was that he was a junior rank. And this is at Isstvaan.

[Adra'Melek]

Oh yes, much better for the story that he was junior. But he was First Captain in FotE so that's 2 to 1

Fulgrim (the book) refers to 'THE First Captain' (as in Kaesoron), probably meaning Captain of the 1st Company, whereas later it seems the First Captains are a separate rank.

However Betrayal doesn't mention 'First Captains' in the Legion Hierarchy section so knows.

I think this has moved away from Iron Warriors so maybe well leave whether or not killing Tarvitz randomly would be a good thing or not

[Kol Saresk]

Thunor's_Hammer beat me to the bottom line.

 

Iron Warrior 1: Man, so sorry I have to kill you. Nothing personal, you''ve always been a friend. But the Primarch's orders are what they are.

Iron Warrior 2: Iron within, iron without!

IW 1: Indeed. Say, we still have some time, so could you remind me which way up you bury a mine?

IW 2: ... what type of mine?

IW 1: Whoah dude, you mean there's more than one?

IW 2: Kill me now.

 

 

Perturabo: We are gathered here to witness the promotions of exceptional warriors. Come forward, Ghaltak!

*nothing happens*

Perturabo: Ghaltak! You are to come forward now!

Random IW Officer: My lord, if I may...

Perturabo: What?

Random IW Officer: Ghaltak's dead.

Perturabo: What? How?

Random IW Officer: ... friendly fire, my lord.

 

 

The Romans had men to spare most of the time. Whereas Astartes, especially Astartes specialists, are an expensive asset, and to be treated as such. Unless your name is Angron and tactics is something that makes your headache worse.

Actually, in the Heresy/GC era, Astartes were as plentiful as fast as you could make them. It was only following afterwards when most of the gene-seed was kept away from the Astartes and the indoctrination and initiation became much more difficult that the ability to effectively recruit took such a nosedive.

[Conn Eremon]

just to clarify, the estimated strength of the 4th legion at the beginning of the heresy was 150,000 to 180,000 legionnaires.

Really? Remember when they said the average Legion was 80-100k? Kind of defeats the purpose of outright stating that when, what? eight to ten? of the twelve Legions so far expanded upon were double that. And we haven't even gotten to the Ultramarines yet. At this rate, all of the other Legions will have to be the size of the Wolves and Thousand Sons.

[Wade Garrett]

"Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."

George Bernard Shaw

The GW Editorial Staff

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

just to clarify, the estimated strength of the 4th legion at the beginning of the heresy was 150,000 to 180,000 legionnaires.

Really? Remember when they said the average Legion was 80-100k? Kind of defeats the purpose of outright stating that when, what? eight to ten? of the twelve Legions so far expanded upon were double that. And we haven't even gotten to the Ultramarines yet. At this rate, all of the other Legions will have to be the size of the Wolves and Thousand Sons.

Yeah, now the "small" Legions are like 80,000, the "middle" Legions are 80,000+-110,000 and 110,000+ are the "large" Legions. Funny how that all works.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

 

just to clarify, the estimated strength of the 4th legion at the beginning of the heresy was 150,000 to 180,000 legionnaires.

Really? Remember when they said the average Legion was 80-100k? Kind of defeats the purpose of outright stating that when, what? eight to ten? of the twelve Legions so far expanded upon were double that. And we haven't even gotten to the Ultramarines yet. At this rate, all of the other Legions will have to be the size of the Wolves and Thousand Sons.

Yeah, now the "small" Legions are like 80,000, the "middle" Legions are 80,000+-110,000 and 110,000+ are the "large" Legions. Funny how that all works.

For me I'm glad they changed it to that size. It leads to believability that the legions were able to conquer most of the galaxy in about 200 years, and then tear it down in 7.

[lokkorex]

Cormac Airt: if i came off as arrogant or a know-it-all, i apologise, but the page i read on heresy30k.com says it's 150,000 to 180,000.

...or i need new glasses.

[Kol Saresk]

Cormac Airt: if i came off as arrogant or a know-it-all, i apologise, but the page i read on heresy30k.com says it's 150,000 to 180,000.

...or i need new glasses.

I think Cormac was pointing out that in Betrayal(IIRC) it was stated the average Legion strength was 80,000 to 100,000. But lately, what we've been seeing are mostly numbers from 110,000 to 140,000.

[Conn Eremon]

I was also going by Massacre, which called the Iron Hands, IIRC in that 80-100k range, as being one of the middling Legions. Now, they sound like they were a small Legion, with those like the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons being straight up tiny.

[Kol Saresk]

Although those two Legions are supposed to get an increase to the ~80,000 range. Or whatever number lets them be bigger than the Salamanders.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

I was also going by Massacre, which called the Iron Hands, IIRC in that 80-100k range, as being one of the middling Legions. Now, they sound like they were a small Legion, with those like the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons being straight up tiny.

 

X Legion = 113,000 as a mid-tier Legion

 

I'd suggest small is anywhere from 80,000-110,000 middle is 110,000-150,000, large is 150,000 up

 

Notably, when the RG were reduced to 80,000, they were listed as the smallest Legion at that time

[Kol Saresk]

Except the World Eaters at 120,000(Betrayal) and the Word Bearers at 140,000(Massacre) are listed as large. Numbers of 150,000-180,000 are astronomical by the numbers presented so far and the only Legions that are supposed to be astronomical are the Word Bearers and Ultramarines.

[Adra'Melek]

Betrayal puts world eaters at 150,000 and describes them as higher-mid levels (pg 97)

Does massacre put the Word Bearers as large? It says they were thought to be 140,000 (increased from 100,000) but doesn't say their 'ranking' in the 'War Disposition' section.

Sons of Horus 130,000-170,000 set in upper quartile of numbers.

Emperor's Children 110,000 but no ranking

Death Guard 95,000

Iron Hands 113,000

Night Lords 90,000-120,000 (stated as extremely inaccurate)

Salamanders 83,000

 

What's 'average' is difficult to with only 8 here (and another 4 'out there').

[Barabbas Sogalon]

It's fun to think that Mortarion had ambitions of a 470,000 strong Legion with 7 Great Companies of 70,000 Legionaries each.

[lokkorex]

weren't there some speculation about the dark angels also being a large legion?

 

maybe the snippet about the fourth fighting alongside the first and fifth means all Three of those grew fast in numbers...

[Nehekhare]

Let's not forget half of the IV was scattered among various garrisons even before the discovery of perturabo.

[Kol Saresk]

weren't there some speculation about the dark angels also being a large legion?

 

maybe the snippet about the fourth fighting alongside the first and fifth means all Three of those grew fast in numbers...

Yeah, that happens when recruits just stockpile on your homeworld.

[Xwingt65]

Ok, so Alpha legion can all of a sudden make a mahveen in a few months? When did that happen?

[Kol Saresk]

 

Ok, so Alpha legion can all of a sudden make a mahveen in a few months? When did that happen?

Observation: They are believed to be capable of that on Imperial paperwork. And we all know Imperial writings do not always equal the truth.

[DarKnight]

weren't there some speculation about the dark angels also being a large legion?

 

maybe the snippet about the fourth fighting alongside the first and fifth means all Three of those grew fast in numbers...

The Lion mentions in 'Savage Weapons' that the Dark Angels are the largest loyal Legion after the Istvaan massacre, but I think he doesn't have enough of a tactical view to really know. Somebody correct me because I haven't read it in a while and he might have meant something different.

[Hyaenidae]

Back on topic of the Iron warriors new fluff, it's mentioned in the book that the IV Legion Gene-seed is relativley clean, and has one of the highest success rate during implantation, and nearly no organ rejection. This, combined with an accellerated training program, could help explain how the IW's were able to get so many bodies on the ground, despite high attrition rates.