Iron Warrior info from book 3?

[Kol Saresk]

Nevermind.

[Greyall]

He should, but then Primarchs would only be in peril when facing other Primarchs or Daemons.

 

When Corswain backstabbed Curze, the Haunter would just have turned back and stick is claws out for Corsy to impale himself...instead, he got stabbed and then pulverized half of the Angel's body...it's better, I think, it shows how absurdly dangerous Corswain's action was and doesn't diminuish Curze at all.

 

Perturabo's loss is his own fault, throughout the story he can't stop salivating at the prospect of killing a bunch of Fists. Then he goes medieval on his own men once the setbacks start to pile. That's not out of character, he purged his entire homeworld in rage...so he does act when hotheaded.

 

Like Kol stated, Pollux is a specialist in void war, and it involves lots of enormous warships that, once set on a formation and course, aren't very maneuverable. To make it worse, Perturabo's formation was rigid.

[Kol Saresk]

He should, but then Primarchs would only be in peril when facing other Primarchs or Daemons.

 

When Corswain backstabbed Curze, the Haunter would just have turned back and stick is claws out for Corsy to impale himself...instead, he got stabbed and then pulverized half of the Angel's body...it's better, I think, it shows how absurdly dangerous Corswain's action was and doesn't diminuish Curze at all.

 

Perturabo's loss is his own fault, throughout the story he can't stop salivating at the prospect of killing a bunch of Fists. Then he goes medieval on his own men once the setbacks start to pile. That's not out of character, he purged his entire homeworld in rage...so he does act when hotheaded.

 

Like Kol stated, Pollux is a specialist in void war, and it involves lots of enormous warships that, once set on a formation and course, aren't very maneuverable. To make it worse, Perturabo's formation was rigid.

Well in fairness, as soon as the Fists made one mistake, Perturabo did rip them a new one.

[Greyall]

True that. Though he was hardly satisfied by it.

 

Also, he decimated thirty-something IF's sent against him. In close confines...that's not a small feat.

[Visitor13]

It was about twenty, as far as I remember.

[DarKnight]

He should, but then Primarchs would only be in peril when facing other Primarchs or Daemons.

 

When Corswain backstabbed Curze, the Haunter would just have turned back and stick is claws out for Corsy to impale himself...instead, he got stabbed and then pulverized half of the Angel's body...it's better, I think, it shows how absurdly dangerous Corswain's action was and doesn't diminuish Curze at all.

 

Perturabo's loss is his own fault, throughout the story he can't stop salivating at the prospect of killing a bunch of Fists. Then he goes medieval on his own men once the setbacks start to pile. That's not out of character, he purged his entire homeworld in rage...so he does act when hotheaded.

 

Like Kol stated, Pollux is a specialist in void war, and it involves lots of enormous warships that, once set on a formation and course, aren't very maneuverable. To make it worse, Perturabo's formation was rigid.

Curze was distracted by fighting another Primarch to be fair, so I never though that diminished him, and Corswain still almost died for it, at the very least was injured for an extensive period of time. You have points though, I just feel like Perty would try to win then get angry, maybe I'm just projecting onto him.

[Nehekhare]

see? this is what I mean. people read this and go: "oh, this isn't in any way unusual. the bad guy is just stupid!"

 

stupid characters don't interest me. too one dimensional. dorn is stupid doing everything right, so what's the difference? it doesn't even matter. cartoon hero vs. cartoon villain and the kids watching slowly begin to think everything in the world is just black and white...

 

now if someone is doing something evil because for him it is the only right thing left to do, that is the seed of drama...

[Kol Saresk]

Where has anyone said stupid? Would you honestly expect some who commands a field artillery unit to be as capable as a naval officer who excels at naval warfare in the strongest navy around in a naval battle just because he has better breeding than the naval officer? That doesn't mean he's stupid, it just means every advantage is in his enemy's favor and not his. It'd still be one-dimensional if a Primarch only won a fight just because he's a Primarch.

[Visitor13]

Yeah, yet another example of mediocre writing from GW.

 

Frankly, the more I think about it, the more boring and jarring the narrative part of 30k gets (as opposed to the purely aesthetic part, like army compositions). 

[Visitor13]

Where has anyone said stupid? Would you honestly expect some who commands a field artillery unit to be as capable as a naval officer who excels at naval warfare in the strongest navy around in a naval battle just because he has better breeding than the naval officer? That doesn't mean he's stupid, it just means every advantage is in his enemy's favor and not his. It'd still be one-dimensional if a Primarch only won a fight just because he's a Primarch.

 

Said primarch is far more than an artillery unit commander. He's a siege specialist. In space.

 

In 40k, true fortresses extend well beyond the walls of cities, well beyond atmospheres of planets even. See Terra, Cadia and Ultramar. There are vast fleets in the vicinity of all of these.  A Warhammer sci-fi siegemaster has to know how to handle these.

 

Of course, when people hear 'siege' they only think of walls and artillery, instead of seeing the bigger picture. But then it's hard to blame them; the bigger picture is routinely ignored in Warhammer narratives. 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Where has anyone said stupid? Would you honestly expect some who commands a field artillery unit to be as capable as a naval officer who excels at naval warfare in the strongest navy around in a naval battle just because he has better breeding than the naval officer? That doesn't mean he's stupid, it just means every advantage is in his enemy's favor and not his. It'd still be one-dimensional if a Primarch only won a fight just because he's a Primarch.

 

Said primarch is far more than an artillery unit commander. He's a siege specialist. In space.

 

In 40k, true fortresses extend well beyond the walls of cities, well beyond atmospheres of planets even. See Terra, Cadia and Ultramar. There are vast fleets in the vicinity of all of these.  A Warhammer sci-fi siegemaster has to know how to handle these.

 

Of course, when people hear 'siege' they only think of walls and artillery, instead of seeing the bigger picture. But then it's hard to blame them; the bigger picture is routinely ignored in Warhammer narratives.

 

 

Except Perturabo has never been cited as being an expert void commander. In fact, at the moment, the only Primarch who has is Dorn. In fact, Dorn's entire Legion is cited to be the premiere Legion when it comes to void warfare. And, get this little kicker, Polux is the premiere Imperial Fist for void warfare in a Legion known for its excellence in, you guessed it, void warfare.

 

So, one Legion is cited for being the go-to Legion for ground-based sieges. The other is the go-to Legion for void warfare. Seems like there is a tiny bit of difference between the two types of warfare. As a civilian, I could be wrong but I imagine it has to do with the fact that naval battles, both maritime and void, aren't quite as static as siege warfare. And, in 30K/40K, void warfare consists of boarding actions, long range torpedo fights, brawling broadsides and having a nice little ballet routine that keeps you constantly moving so you don't get shot while also allowing for maximum firing arcs against the enemy.

 

Again, I could be wrong since I'm only a civilian and I have no experience in the commonalities and differences between void warfare and siege warfare.

[Visitor13]

And yet for a ground-based siege to start, you first need to get to the ground. Which means going through the outermost fortifications - the fleets.

 

So even if the IWs were not known for their skills at void warfare, they must have done plenty of it.

[Kol Saresk]

And yet for a ground-based siege to start, you first need to get to the ground. Which means going through the outermost fortifications - the fleets.

 

So even if the IWs were not known for their skills at void warfare, they must have done plenty of it.

And that can be said of any Legion, not just the Iron Warriors. The difference is that the Imperial Fists did it so much and so well that they built a reputation on it. The same way the World Eaters built a reputation on being the blitzkrieg Legion even though all Legions have to deal with CCQ at some point in their existence.

[Visitor13]

 

And yet for a ground-based siege to start, you first need to get to the ground. Which means going through the outermost fortifications - the fleets.

 

So even if the IWs were not known for their skills at void warfare, they must have done plenty of it.

And that can be said of any Legion, not just the Iron Warriors. The difference is that the Imperial Fists did it so much and so well that they built a reputation on it.

 

Thanks to the guidance of their Primarch. Who was absent then.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

And yet for a ground-based siege to start, you first need to get to the ground. Which means going through the outermost fortifications - the fleets.

 

So even if the IWs were not known for their skills at void warfare, they must have done plenty of it.

And that can be said of any Legion, not just the Iron Warriors. The difference is that the Imperial Fists did it so much and so well that they built a reputation on it.

 

Thanks to the guidance of their Primarch. Who was absent then.

 

Not going to lie, that statement made no sense to me.

[Visitor13]

Dorn wasn't there (at Phall) to lead the vastly outnumbered IF fleet againt Perturabo.

[Conn Eremon]

Aha. I assumed it was a general statement. The assumption was because a general statement would apply, whereas a specific one would not.

[Marshal Rohr]

Polux is specifically mentioned to be a rising star in the Imperial Fists and one if the rare occasions wear a non-Primarch is notable for being as close to Primarch level intelligence as possible. The book also clearly explains the Perturabo had organized his assault as if he was dealing with Sigismund in command, and instead of wasting time and effort to pullback and recalculate, he pressed the initiative against the Tribune. Once the tribune was engaged the Fosts became more disorganized and it is heavily implied the Pantheon allowed Dorns message through the warp specifically because the Fists would break off. The Iron Warriors losses were primarily because they misjudged their target, but the Imperial Fists lost 20,000 space marines and 266 warships of their 500 because they disengaged. The majority of the ships lost were their heavier battleships as well. It's hardly a case of Perturabo getting beaten by a standard line captain. Polux is one of the shining stars of the crusade, and performed well given the sheer ravishing the Iron Warriors unleashed on them.

[Visitor13]

There's also the matter of the rivalry between the two Primarchs; while Dorn might have ultimately been the better fleet commander, there's every reason to believe Perturabo did his best to outshine him. Ultimately the difference in skill between the two with regard to fleet tactics can't have been that great. Certainly not great enough to squeeze in a nigh-defeat at the hands of Dorn's third in command. 

 

EDIT: this post was written before I could read M2C's post above.

[Nehekhare]

such a story would never be told about the good guys. Dorn doesn't "misjudge" the iron cage - it's a deliberate attempt to purify his legion while perturabo doesn't have the guts to finish him. Now who else of the primarchs EVER lost or even nearly lost in ANY engagement against a simple captain? You can't even argue about it because it is written that way. There is no IW view that somehow doesn't make phall look like a total failure. disappointing. an insult even.  

[Wade Garrett]

such a story would never be told about the good guys....Now who else of the primarchs EVER lost or even nearly lost in ANY engagement against a simple captain?

Roboute Guilliman got his fanny handed to him in the void over Nuceria by a "simple captain" who wasn't even an Astartes.

 

Check yourself before you wreck yourself, friend.

[Nehekhare]

nuceria? angron's home world?

[Wade Garrett]

nuceria? angron's home world?

That's the one.

 

Although to be fair, Lotarra is a "simple mortal flag captain" the way Ibrahim Gaunt is "just a commissar".

[Scribe]

 

such a story would never be told about the good guys....Now who else of the primarchs EVER lost or even nearly lost in ANY engagement against a simple captain?

Roboute Guilliman got his fanny handed to him in the void over Nuceria by a "simple captain" who wasn't even an Astartes.

 

Check yourself before you wreck yourself, friend.

 

Umm how are these even remotely comparable?

 

IF smash an ambushing force, and are nearly victorious (if I remember) while a Primarch is in a superior position.

 

UM fight through a blockade in name only of superior firepower, with the intent of simply landing ships on the surface, which they do, while Rob is making his way to the surface, not directing his rag tag and mauled fleet anyway.

 

The mind boggles.

[Nehekhare]

lotara didn't even delay guilliman, it was angron who handed him his rearside.