Why the rush?

[Hrolf the Cunning]

From the earliest iterations of the Horus Heresy there has  been a deliberate emphasis on the sense of urgency exhibited by the traitors and some rash or at least not strategically ideal moves as a result. Do people feel like that sense of urgency has been diluted following the fleshing out of the period as I'm struggling to see any need for urgency from the traitors as they seem to have a significant advantage ( least in terms of quantity of viable astartes, following the decimation of 3 legions)?

[Kilofix]

Horus had planned on nobody surviving Isstvan 3/5.

 

As it turned out, even with 3 Loyalist Legions crippled, they felt that once all the Loyalists converged on Terra they would be defeated.

 

That was also why they pre-emptively held up the Smurfs at Calth, etc.

[MordentHex]

the legions under Horus have also taken a sever beating in numbers and are running at much less than their former strength. having 9 legions at his disposal is all good and dandy but they are all combined probably in numerical strength much less than the loyalist legions, except for those that got beat down on isst5. this is not counting in logistical support, titan casualty rates, refurbishment and scavenging of other resources on the way.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I agree that the way the novel series has been plotted out has definitely damaged the pace and urgency of the original stories.

 

The reason behind the rush to Terra was that Horus was capitalizing on his strengths. Those being: three annihilated legions, the Ultramarines being too far away to interfere at Terra, and the distraction of the Wolves and Dark Angels meaning, despite the depletion of his own forces, he would still hold the distinct numerical advantage at Terra (which would be crucial since frontal assaults on fortified positions heavily favor the defenders.

 

Even as the original stories evolved, they still kept the mad dash to Terra because it was always a race against time. Destroy the Emperor. Kill the Grand Pooh-Bah. Eliminate even the toughest stain. At that point, with the Emperor defeated, and three more loyal legions annihilated, it would just be a matter of consolidating their forces and dealing with the Ultramarines and the remnants of the Space Wolves and Dark Angels. It was always a gambit, but it was also always predicated on treachery and speed. 

 

 

The novel series has lost sight of that and replaced it with... something else which doesn't make much strategic sense. The traitor legions have kinda lapsed into a lazy war of attrition, some of them just wandering around the galaxy following their own incomprehensible plans and goals, leaving the loyalists time to regroup and recover. 

 

But the again, we know the novel series is about selling books, not necessarily finishing the story. One author will try to finish a series out of the desire for completion, or a waning interest in the setting, etc. When you're just a publishing entity with a more or less inexhaustible supply of authors, you don't need to have any such tangible goal.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

After a while everything gets a bit fuzzy in the memory but I thought the notion that from Horus's treachery being revealed at Isstvan to his death at the hands (mind?) of the Emperor above Terra took seven standard years went back a long way.

As has been noted, Horus outnumbered the loyalists nine to six in simple legion terms after Istvann V but the traitor legions had had to purge their ranks of those who would not turn. Furthermore, instead of dying quickly and conveniently to the life-eater virus many loyalists survived (Hooray for Tarvitz!) and held out for several months of brutal guerilla warfare costing the Warmaster more troops. Even with the advantages of surprise and numerical superiority the Traitor Legions may have lost a third of their numbers in the Isstvan system. The Thousand Sons were notionally on Horus's side but according to A Thousand Sons only about a thousand of them survived the Razing of Prospero so their contribution is negligible, the fragments of the Iron Hands count for more than that.

 

Direct assault on a dug in enemy may require an advantage of two or three to one. I still think that Horus displayed his classic "Kill the head and the body will die" mentality. He crushed three legions at Istvann. He sent the Word Bearers, supported by World Eaters, to defeat the Ultramarines at Calth and pin down the survivors, the Alpha Legion to delay the White Scars and Space Wolves and the Night Lords to delay the Dark Angels.  He would then head as quickly as he could, gathering strength along the way, to attack the palace and Dorn's legion on Terra.

I think that there is still a sense of urgency but the scale of the galaxy means that it still takes a long time. The Warp Storms restrict travel, less so for the traitors but still somewhat.

Ironically though there are never more than three loyalist Primarchs together at any point in the Heresy whilst Horus holds a council of all nine traitor Primarchs, the loyalists are more united. The traitors all rebelled for different reasons and so had different agendas. Horus wanted the Throne to be his, Lorgar wanted the gods to love him, Angron wanted vengeance on the Emperor and on Guilliman, Night Haunter and Mortarion just wanted to see the Imperium torn down, Fulgrim wanted to ascend to daemonhood, Magnus grieved for Prospero but recognised his own hubris so was half-hearted in his rebellion, Perturabo wanted vengeance against Dorn and Alpharius, well, who knows what his agenda really is?

Horus wants to complete the war but he's frustrated by the rivalry and scheming of his allies and underlings.

I like that the timescale allows for character development and "What Ifs" - now Guilliman didn't simply fail to reach Terra in time, he made a conscious decision to fortify Ultramar as the heart of his "Imperium Secundus" rather than protect Terra. He's a traitor in his own way, certainly I think Dorn would see it that way.

 

[Komrk]

While Horus had an advantage on the grand scale, once you get down to the numbers it's not so good. The combined forces of the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children were less in numbers to the deployments of the Raven Guard, Salamanders, and elite units of the Iron Hands (not even the full legion). It's safe to assume that the 8 traitor legions on Istvaan V took decent casualties. Following the Massacre, Horus had what I would say are 4 half strength legions (considering they purged about 1/3 of those legions on Istvaan III), and then a decent number of casualties from the other four. The Thousand Sons were down to about 1k marines left which means that the remnants of the Raven Guard make up for three times the force directly following the massacre, five times the force by the time the Alpha Legion sabotage their production. I don't know what the Word Bearers and World Eaters losses were fighting the Ultramarines but they were probably high considering the numbers that the Ultramarines had. The Night Lords have their Primarch and First Captain essentially lost to them and 1/5 of their fleet gone. The Iron Warriors were dealt significant damage at Phall. On top of that the Traitor Primarchs still don't get along with each other. Horus isn't exactly in a position to push.

[Chop]

Don't forget the Blood Angels were suppose to be crushed or stuck on singus. Horus thought he would only be fighting the Imerial Fist on Terra, and of course all the imperial Guard.

[Castrmen Orth]

Yeah imagine the look on their faces when they do arrive on terra to see not only the emperors praetorian but the angel and the warhawk. Arguably the two brothers closest to pre heresy horus

[jeremy1391]

One thing we also have to remember is that Horus has faced setbacks as to how many legions he thought were going to side with him.

 

Fulgrim was supposed to turn Ferrus.

Horus thought he could sway Sanguinius and the Khan.

 

If the traitors would have been able to sway these three legions the battle of terra would have been just Dorn and his legion.

 

But as we all know that didn't happen. there had to be internal purges within the traitor ranks which was a lot of marines that had to die. Then there was the drop site which did shatter 3 loyal legions it also cost the traitors.

 

Also there is Calth and the shadow crusade which should have shattered the ultramarines but failed.

 

There is also the schism among the alpha legion which will lead to an unknown amount of casualties on both sides.

 

The. There is Fulgrim and his legion turning into sex addled junkies which I'm sure did not help the war effort....

 

So all things considered with all that has gone wrong for the warmaster the fact that the traitors made it to terra and breached the palace and crippled the emperor is pretty impressive.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Horus thought he could sway Sanguinius and the Khan.

Good point about the legions turned though on the subject of Sanguinius and the Blood Angels (spoiler for Fear to Tread)

 

 

Erebus wanted the Blood Angels on side but Horus undermined his efforts because he was afraid that Sanguinius would usurp him as Chaos's number one.

 

[Wade Garrett]

He's a traitor in his own way, certainly I think Dorn would see it that way.

People who repeatedly try to kill themselves tend to have an odd outlook on things, this is true.

 

Okay, that's unfair...Dorn only TRIED suicide by Perturabo once. His suicide by Abaddon was a success.

[Tenebris]

Why the rush? Simply, because the Imperium at large is a sleeping lion with worlds which have massive amounts of valid imperial army recruits which were not needed as long as the legions were around. Now that you have fully half of the legions become traitor and the other half buying time, the entire gamble is who would reach Terra first, the traitors, or the massive reserves sent to Terra by countless worlds which have been indoctrinated into imperial service for the past two centuries or so.

 

Sure there are worlds and forge worlds siding with Horus but I think I am right when I say that there are more loyalist worlds than traitor ones out there. So while Horus is in the ascendant, with three loyalist legions crippled, he is far from secure to proceed with his conquest of Terra. It is a time race between him and the reserves of the Imperium and even on such scale he has at best a year or two to operate, as long as he has the initiative, an initiative that was severely blunted by the loyalist efforts and stubbornness.

 

So I expect things to degenerate very soon and most probably double the pace. Unlike Abaddon in the 13th Black Crusade, where he can focus the full might of the chaos forces in a relatively small area, and thus maximize the effect and impact by tenfold, Horus, is in the middle of the galaxy, with traitor legion that cooperate and not, depends on the mood, with an Imperium which is slowly recovering from the initial shock and with the mightiest of his assets in a very perilous location on the galactic plane. It is proven that the Raven Guard are now in their elements, biting at his heels, the survivors of Istvaan are playing the same game, for they know how vulnerable are the Warmaster's flanks and Horus knows that it is only time when Guilliman, Sanguinius and above all the Lion come at him in full force.

 

In short, Horus knows the following:

 

- Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists are entrenched on Terra, every minute spent in fortification building and making the Solar system a bulwark;

- The triumvirate Guilliman, Jonson and Sanguinius is known to him;

- The Imperial Army is focusing again from the initial shock, the only thing that Horus has against this are the Alpha Legion campaign of misinformation and his own charisma, they work, but only for a time...

- The Night Haunter has been beaten soundly, as has been Perturabo, two of his legions are already with diminished strength;

- The father he sends his traitor brothers, less and less will they be in his sphere of influence... 

- He counted on the Khan, the Khan proved a bad gamble, already two traitor fleets bleed...

- Istvaan reduced his might thus he has to recuperate the elan as soon as possible...

- Fulgrim... well he is out of the game, he is in fact impossible to control...

- While the Daemon Primarchs are mighty boons to the traitor armies... with every brother that ascends to daemonhood Horus loses and ally and a legion, for they no longer serve him, but serve their gods... and what was once a bond of blood and brotherhood is now at best an alliance of convenience which holds as long as the patron gods are aligned...

 

So Horus HAS to rush,...

[Karthak]

 

He's a traitor in his own way, certainly I think Dorn would see it that way.

People who repeatedly try to kill themselves tend to have an odd outlook on things, this is true.

 

Okay, that's unfair...Dorn only TRIED suicide by Perturabo once. His suicide by Abaddon was a success.

Didn't ADB recently say that Dorn died in a Black Crusade that Abaddon wasn't involved in?

[Sevatar]

 

 

He's a traitor in his own way, certainly I think Dorn would see it that way.

People who repeatedly try to kill themselves tend to have an odd outlook on things, this is true.

 

Okay, that's unfair...Dorn only TRIED suicide by Perturabo once. His suicide by Abaddon was a success.

Didn't ADB recently say that Dorn died in a Black Crusade that Abaddon wasn't involved in?

I believe so. Can't find the quote at the moment

[Relict]

The Traitors had one overriding goal during the Horus Heresy: to kill the Emperor. To do this by combat and not through assassination, this means they had to invade Terra, the most heavily fortified world in the Imperium, if not the galaxy. 

 

Before the advent of the Industrial Revolution, a successful siege accomplished by the strength of arms would often require that the attackers outnumber the defenders by at least a 2:1 ratio. To guarantee success would often require more. 

 

In addition to the Legions, Horus had half of the Adeptus Mechanicus and at least a third of the Imperial Army at his disposal. 

 

Now let us look at the nine Traitor Legions.

 

Of the four that fought on Isstvan III, all suffered massive casualties. According to Betrayal, the Sons of Horus and World Eaters Legions each lost 30,000-35,000 legionaries. The Death Guard and Emperor's Children lost a similar proportion of legionaries, with the Death Guard's ability to field armored units greatly reduced. 

 

On Isstvan V, due to the nature of the fighting, we can deduce that the original four Traitor Legions suffered further casualties proportional to what the Shattered Legions suffered prior to the betrayal. Of the Legions of the second wave, let us assume that the casualties were relatively light. 

 

The Thousand Sons lost 90% of their legionaries on Prospero, with the remainder still not committing to the Traitors' cause as of Scars. 

 

The Word Bearers sent a force of approximately 50,000 legionaries to Calth. Virtually all of whom had been lost or otherwise abandoned to the Underground War. 

 

The Iron Warriors and Night Lords were similarly reduced at Phall and Thramas respectively. Perturabo could master a force of 50,000 Iron Warriors during the events of Angel Exterminatus. 

 

So this leaves the following figures by the most recent book in the Horus Heresy series.

 

Sons of Horus: 60,000-90,000

World Eaters: 60,000-70,000 (they have been described as barely above half strength)

Emperor's Children: < 50,000

Death Guard: <50,000

Thousand Sons: 1,000

Iron Warriors: 50,000 (waiting for Extermination to confirm this)

Night Lords: 60,000-70,000 (with the loss of cohesion)

Word Bearers: 150,000-170,000 (they have been described by Massacre as having enlarged their Legion to rival the Ultramarines in size during the final decades of the Great Crusade)

Alpha Legion: Unknown (waiting for Extermination)

 

Finally, both the Legions and their Primarchs are deteriorating due to the growing influence of Chaos. Angron had ascended to Daemonhood at the end of the Shadow Crusade. Likewise Fulgrim after the events of Angel Exterminatus. We know what would happen to Mortarion and his Legion while en route to Terra, and Magnus the Red remained unwilling to commit the Thousand Sons to the fighting. 

 

In conclusion, Horus really had only one option: to drive on Terra before his forces lost their momentum and fell apart. To this end, he needed as many Loyalist Legions destroyed or occupied when his fleet finally reached Terra. Thus the Dropsite Massacre, Calth, Signus, Thramas, Chondax, etc. If by the time the balance of the Traitor Legions arrived in-system at Sol, the only resistance they faced on the ground were the Imperial Fists, then it would have been enough. 

[DuskRaider]

The only thing is, it's been stated that even during the Heresy the Traitor Legions are still actively recruiting and pumping out Astartes at an accelerated rate. I know according to Extermination the Alpha Legion had roughly 100,000 Astartes on paper, but logistically their number was 180,000+ ...

[Relict]

That is the one thing I didn't/couldn't account for. No piece of canon I have read indicates that the Traitor Legions were still recruiting/inducting new legionaries.

It does make sense, though. Where else could they have gotten thousands of legionaries to throw into the meatgrinder? It is known that during the last decades of the Great Crusade (at the very least), that some Legions (such as the World Eaters) were using accelerated training regimens designed to produce legionaries quickly (although not as fast as Corax's solution following the Dropsite Massacre).

I mean, if Lorgar could have his three king-ships constructed in secret, why couldn't he or any other Primarch churn out legionaries quickly? This was the fast-pace environment of the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, when the Legions weren't using the carefully tailored methods that present-day Chapters use.

The Alpha Legion had 180,000 legionaries? Damn...

[GhostMalone]

Iirc it actually was in the HH series I'll have to check my notes but they are still actively recruiting

[Kol Saresk]

Well, I think of it this way: Nothing says they didn't. And if the Raven Guard could recruit, why couldn't the Traitors recruit?

[HaSY]

Word bearers should be 200k.

Blood angels still 120k after signus prime.

Iron warrior should be around 150k to 180k.

Dark angels could be at least 150k Or more and this yet to be confirmed

[Kol Saresk]

Word Bearers are actually closer to 250,000 as per the recruitment program laid out in Aurelian combine with the bit in Massacre that said they were able to virtually instantaneously replace their losses.

[HaSY]

In fact I think they may have surpassed ultramarines. Forgotten about the Aurelian book.

[HaSY]

Unofficially Alpha is 180k. It has been stated in extermination that while other Legions having losses, Alpha Legion is still growing...

Thanks to new gene tech I suppose

[Veteran Sergeant]

Unofficially Alpha is 180k. It has been stated in extermination that while other Legions having losses, Alpha Legion is still growing...

Thanks to new gene tech I suppose

More misdirection. There's actually only twelve of them.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Unofficially Alpha is 180k. It has been stated in extermination that while other Legions having losses, Alpha Legion is still growing...

Thanks to new gene tech I suppose

More misdirection. There's actually only twelve of them.

 

 

Actually, misdirection is a possibility. In Scars, the White Scars where blockaded by what appeared to be an Alpha Legion fleet equal in size to their own. Having received reports of the Wolves' battle with the XX, the Khan came to the conclusion that the fleet was either a bluff, or the Alpha Legion had been hiding their true strength. While running the blockade, it was discovered the fleet was made up of modified transport ships, etc to appear as an Astartes fleet.

 

So it is entirely possible that once they retrieved the gene-tech to pump out full-blown Astartes in a matter of weeks that the XX simply put enough recruits in enough areas to make it appear as if they over strength.