Fixing plasma pistols.

[Rasclomalum]

Plasma pistols suck. Plasma pistols come in droves in every sprue. Plasma pistols are iconic to the franchise. They could do with a boost, and whenever they are brought up in discussion I keep hearing two things - reduce their cost, and allow them to be used in close combat. Both are good suggestions, but how does one make it work mechanically?

 

Drop them to 5 points or thereabouts, allow characters and independent characters to wield them in pairs to make good use of gunslinger. 10 points for, essentially, rapid fire plasma on an HQ that now cannot have fisticlaws or the Khornate axe - seriously, compared to other options in the Chaos Codex (and other Codexes) it seems to me it wouldn't be overpowered by damn sight.

 

If they are to be used in close combat though, S7 AP2 seems a tad too strong. Given that they are cheaper than power fists (and unwieldy would be kinda hard to justify on such a weapon), I think it would be necessary to give the plasma pistol a less powerful close combat mode. S4 AP3 to make it a power sword equivalent (or S:user though that doesn't make much sense?) Obviously, they cannot be just 5 points if we allow for that. So what if the basic Plasma Pistol works just like it does today, but gets a sharp points reduction. Then you can purchase appropriately priced close combat addons (like, Close Quarters Firing Mode, Power Bayonet, Power Knuckle Dusters or whatever). What about that? 

 

EDIT: Actually, what with Gets Hot being part of the equation you might as well keep the plasma pistol at its current price and allow for it to strike like a power sword in close combat. One could argue that no price increase is needed, you'd essentially have a power sword that can also shoot, with the drawback of it having the potential to kill you. Fair trade I'd say. Pair it with a power sword and you can fight in close combat with no risk of blowing yourself up, but you lose that extra shot.

[McFisty]

Great ideas Ras, I second everything you just said. I am also in favor of reducing plasma to S6 AP2 and getting rid of the gets hot rule. I don't think it makes sense to have guns that overheat while having the ability to teleport as well. It seems to be a serious contradiction in technology. That's my 2 cents worth.

[Lysere]

Plasma pistols suck. Plasma pistols come in droves in every sprue. Plasma pistols are iconic to the franchise. They could do with a boost, and whenever they are brought up in discussion I keep hearing two things - reduce their cost, and allow them to be used in close combat. Both are good suggestions, but how does one make it work mechanically?

 

Drop them to 5 points or thereabouts, allow characters and independent characters to wield them in pairs to make good use of gunslinger. 10 points for, essentially, rapid fire plasma on an HQ that now cannot have fisticlaws or the Khornate axe - seriously, compared to other options in the Chaos Codex (and other Codexes) it seems to me it wouldn't be overpowered by damn sight.

 

If they are to be used in close combat though, S7 AP2 seems a tad too strong. Given that they are cheaper than power fists (and unwieldy would be kinda hard to justify on such a weapon), I think it would be necessary to give the plasma pistol a less powerful close combat mode. S4 AP3 to make it a power sword equivalent (or S:user though that doesn't make much sense?) Obviously, they cannot be just 5 points if we allow for that. So what if the basic Plasma Pistol works just like it does today, but gets a sharp points reduction. Then you can purchase appropriately priced close combat addons (like, Close Quarters Firing Mode, Power Bayonet, Power Knuckle Dusters or whatever). What about that? 

 

EDIT: Actually, what with Gets Hot being part of the equation you might as well keep the plasma pistol at its current price and allow for it to strike like a power sword in close combat. One could argue that no price increase is needed, you'd essentially have a power sword that can also shoot, with the drawback of it having the potential to kill you. Fair trade I'd say. Pair it with a power sword and you can fight in close combat with no risk of blowing yourself up, but you lose that extra shot.

 

The problem with making it like a power sword in combat then becomes why ever take the sword. Maybe make it so that when in combat a model can fire pistols as if they were shooting instead of making their normal attacks. This could of course be penalized or something to show how chaotic close combat can be. Maybe make them snap shots, or some such. This would prevent flamer pistols from being used but allow the others to be used with slight penalties. Of course I think making pistols cheaper would be good considering a plasma gun costs the same and is much more versatile.

[minionboy]

I've always said I'd buy 10 point plasma pistols all day long. 20 points, same amount of fire power at 12", doesn't stop charging and is a bonus attack in combat. At 15 points, 30 for two, I just can't see it, especially since lords don't have a 3rd weapon to exchange for a fist or something.

[Firebrethren]

I would't worry to much about the Plasma pistols Ras. Although it is true, they do need a power boost... not much though, in a recent game my Terminators (10: armed with a pair of lightning claws!!! - 40 Power weapon attacks, re-rolling failed rolls to wound!!!!) attacked the opponents Vanguard squad.

 

They each had a plasma pistol, and I lost about three terminators - just on the Overwatch rule! Then they chewed me up a bit more on the assult.... but the point is, that even though they need a bit of a boost - maybe increase the range a bit? Don't make them power weapons??!! If you ever were on the receiving end of that... Nasty!

 

Regards,

Lord Firebrethren

[Firebrethren]

Chaos plasma pistols are nearly the same... though I prefere to go with large quantities of automatic weaponry (Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Autocannons ect. ect.) for my small, Chaos army!

[Dam13n]

In terms of power balance they're fire, they are Plasma pistols, so they shoot with "S7, AP2, Gets Hot" just like all (proper) plasma weapons.  Plus they're a pistol, so use the pistol rules in shooting/assault.

 

The rules are fine.

 

The cost, on the other hand, is too high.  10pts on an (Independent) Character, 5pts for a unit upgrade, would be more appropriate.  But then again, GW have over-costed a fair few of the upgrades in codex CSM.  The Terminator's Reaper Autocannon for example.

 

I personally agreed with the 3.5 set-up of most weapons being cheaper for unit champions etc. and more expensive for Lords etc. as it made sense that a model with a better stat-line would have to pay more, as the weapon/wargear would be more effective in their hands than the comparatively less skilled Aspiring Champion.

 

Unfortunately 4th/5th edition decided to drop this approach (probably as part of the "we must simplify the game as much as possible" philosophy they had at the time.) which IMO was a mistake.

 

Still, no point complaining about it.  The rules are what they are, so unless you plan to House-rule, you're stuck with them.

[Tenebris]

Well truth be told a price reduction by 5 points would be much welcome. Cypher has a rule to use the guns in close combat but I have yet to test it. I think that overall the weapon is good for what it does, you pay for AP 2 and a high strength shot which can in the right hands (read plenty of Precision Shots) be very powerful. I have two pistols in my army usually, one on an Aspiring Champion and one on my Chaos Lord (when I field my Kranon model). Now I cannot say that they got their points back, which is the whole point of upgrades but they have certainly been useful several times. In one game my Aspiring Champion killed some nasty flamers with it and even knocked a sergeant. But as always it comes down to luck.

 

I have tested it on my Plasma Chosen Champion and well, it is nasty since you can reliably place one shot almost every turn, though I switched that to a combiflamer which proved time and again its worth in points, especially when comes to charges or for objective clearing.

 

In the end, I think a price reduction is all it needs. 

[Nehekhare]

it made sense that a model with a better stat-line would have to pay more, as the weapon/wargear would be more effective in their hands than the comparatively less skilled Aspiring Champion.

 

Unfortunately 4th/5th edition decided to drop this approach (probably as part of the "we must simplify the game as much as possible" philosophy they had at the time.) which IMO was a mistake.

 

yeah...Marks and VotlW would like to have a word with you.

[hopkins]

Can you charge in the assault phase after using the plasma pistol in the shooting phase?

I see it has Pistol in the weapon profile, but doesn't say Assault

[Spacefrisian]

No price redux needed, maybe even an option to make it useable in close combat for an extra 10 points, seems weird that we see action heroes in movies use pistols up close and personal, but not in the explosion packed future of the 41st millenium,

 

New special rule: Gunkata, character can use pistols in close combat.

[Plague Angel]

Pistol includes Assault in its rules by default, there's no need for it to say both.

[totgeboren]

10 pts for characters, 5 for unit upgrades. Done.

 

Though, I would like that they also drop the S to 6 and remove Get Hot. It's just too dangerous to have on a Champ, meaning I at least still would not take them on my champs even at 10 pts. As long as they have Get hot, they are not going to be taken by characters. and as long as they cost more than a meltagun, they are not going to be taken by squads. So they need to cost less than meltaguns for squads, and they need to not Get Hot. So a 10/5 pts cost and S6 Ap2 no get hot and we are golden.

[Wayniac]

I've always found "Gets Hot" to be stupid anyways.  But then again I remember when it was ONLY for Chaos to represent the MkI plasma weapons, not the ones the Imperium used.

[Excessus]

I've always found "Gets Hot" to be stupid anyways.  But then again I remember when it was ONLY for Chaos to represent the MkI plasma weapons, not the ones the Imperium used.

Yup. Back then you couldn't even have them as combi-weapon parts either, the only combi-plasma was Azrael's.

 

A price drop would see people actually using them, and that would be nice. As it is now, I'm only using them for combi-parts...

[Trevak Dal]

I'd say keep the points as they are now, but in Close combat, you keep the Strength 7 ap2 at initiative, but maybe 1 "attack" (shot) per plasma pistol.  A get's hot result in close combat you center the blast marker over the characters head-all units under it are hit with a strenght 5 ap2 hit-the wielder is hit with a s7 ap2 hit (invulnerable saves allowed)

[Lysere]

I'd say keep the points as they are now, but in Close combat, you keep the Strength 7 ap2 at initiative, but maybe 1 "attack" (shot) per plasma pistol.  A get's hot result in close combat you center the blast marker over the characters head-all units under it are hit with a strenght 5 ap2 hit-the wielder is hit with a s7 ap2 hit (invulnerable saves allowed)

 

That gets into too many rules almost for one weapon though. I'd rather just see them 5 pts cheaper for all armies. Also why would you want to drop it to S6? Tau and Eldar have that, and it sucks against armor.

[Tenebris]

On a side note the plasma pistol is useful on the Havocs Aspiring Champion, as a nice boon when someone is stupid enough to deep strike in your backfield. I have seen many looks of surprise when my Obliterators opened up on such squads but sometimes they are not there and with a plasma pistol if you are lucky you can knock down a terminator, one less to worry about.

 

But so far the only change I would make is dropping the cost to 10 points, on par with the combiweapon for the champions and 5 points for the rest of the unit. While the plasma pistol is iconic indeed, especially for team chaos who still are supposed to use it at regular basis, it has some serious competition when comes to shooting weapons. 

 

To grant any bonus in melee would make it almost mandatory hence it will be costing us more than it does now. Having an AP2 weapon in melee is a great bonus, a bonus that is very costly. 

[minionboy]

I disagree with 5 point plasma pistols, that swings too far the other way and would pretty much be an auto include. The same cost as a combi means you're picking between extra attack, more shots per game but less shots when you need it, plus the option for longer range.

[Fibonacci]

10 points is good.  No other pistol uses its S and AP in close combat in this edition so I see no reason why plasma pistols should be an exception.

[Rasclomalum]

 

The problem with making it like a power sword in combat then becomes why ever take the sword. Maybe make it so that when in combat a model can fire pistols as if they were shooting instead of making their normal attacks. This could of course be penalized or something to show how chaotic close combat can be. Maybe make them snap shots, or some such. This would prevent flamer pistols from being used but allow the others to be used with slight penalties. Of course I think making pistols cheaper would be good considering a plasma gun costs the same and is much more versatile.

 

 

Well, it would be a power sword with Gets Hot. Roll a 1 in close combat and bang, there's a lost attack and a potentially lost wound. I think the risk/reward ratio is pretty even-steven here. A power sword cannot shoot, but it cannot kill you either. The chaotic aspect you're asking for is already in the rules. :-)

[totgeboren]

Allowing it to be used in close combat with a better profile does sort of forces you to answer why a Bolt Pistol should not give some sort of buff in close combat too? An IG Sgt with a bolt pistol should be more dangerous than a Sgt with a laspistol one might think in that case. And giving it the profile of a power sword also makes you wonder why it is Ap2 at range but Ap3 in close combat?

 

Nah, 40k has a pretty sharp divide between shooting weapons and melee weapons, I don't think it's a good idea to cross that line.

 

And even if it was 10 points, I would never ever buy it for Raptors or Chaos marines or anyone who also has access to a meltagun. 10 pts is simply waaay to much for what you get, especially considering that people seldom take meltaguns nowadays, and they are better in every conceivable way to a plasma pistol. 10 pts is too much for squads. For characters... maybe. Get Hot is a huge drawback. Losing your champ to a Get Hot roll before the charge can cost you the game (it has happened to a friend of mine enough times that he stopped using plasma pistols. Not because of the cost, but because of Get Hot.).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

On a side note the plasma pistol is useful on the Havocs Aspiring Champion, as a nice boon when someone is stupid enough to deep strike in your backfield. I have seen many looks of surprise when my Obliterators opened up on such squads but sometimes they are not there and with a plasma pistol if you are lucky you can knock down a terminator, one less to worry about.

 

I'd rather take a combi-plasma in this case.  It's cheaper, longer ranged, more shots, and you're likely only going to have the chance to fire it once anyway.

[incinerator950]

I'm not sure how to re-work it for gets hot, but making it cost relative to the model using it.  HQ's should get it cheaper at 5-10, Elite Champions 10-15, and regular champs at 15. 

That being said, I want to include profiles for dual wielding pistols such as Cypher, taking gunslinger and having just pistols to put more rounds down target.  I think it would be amusing to take two Plasma pistols.

[King Jackal]

How about any model that takes plasma pistols may 'precision strike' in assault at strength 7 ap 2?

To be honest I really like the Cypher rules for pistols and think this should be implemented across the board. It makes pistols so much more than what they are now.

 

All that said, I'd like to see plasma in general have an over charge feature wherein you gain extra shots(?) (large blast for plasma cannons) at the risk of increased gets hot, 1 extra shot 1-2, 2 extra shots 1-3 etc