Fixing plasma pistols.

[Rasclomalum]

Allowing it to be used in close combat with a better profile does sort of forces you to answer why a Bolt Pistol should not give some sort of buff in close combat too? An IG Sgt with a bolt pistol should be more dangerous than a Sgt with a laspistol one might think in that case. And giving it the profile of a power sword also makes you wonder why it is Ap2 at range but Ap3 in close combat?

 

The AP3 would be easy enough to explain, just say that full-strength plasma is too dangerous for the gunman at such an extremely close range as man-to-man combat. In close combat, the pistol would have to be set to close combat firing mode (like, flicking a switch with your thumb or something like that), allowing it to fire short, controlled bursts of low-power plasma at extremely short range. Hence the lower strength and armour penetration. 

 

I understand though that this may end up a spanner in the works. Stock marines would go from AP- to AP5 (no close combat firing mode justification in sight there). 

[Minsc]

Plasmapistols need a fix. Right now I would ever only consider using one of my Salamander-sergeants (= gunslinger), but that's only because I can master-craft it for free.

...Or I could just take a master-crafted combiplasma and save myself 5 points. :rolleyes:

So cheaper seems to be the best way to fix them, but making them 5 points would make them autoinclude in my lists.

10 points seems more reasonable and balanced.

 

[Xenith]

Problem is in assault armies that the plasma shot, while a near-guaranteed kill on BS5, it means that you are increasing the roll you need to assault, this makes it a poor choice.

 

For BA, the infernus pistol is better in nearly all regards than the plasma (have to be within 6" to use it, so will probably still be in assault range), and even that is inferior to the 12" range meltagun. However the Infernus becomes an option for 10pts on Sanguard, and sees some use.

 

10pts is a good balance, short of changing rules. An ideal situation would be that pistols fire at I10 in the assault phase, instead of the shooting phase, if you want to charge.

[incinerator950]

Problem is in assault armies that the plasma shot, while a near-guaranteed kill on BS5, it means that you are increasing the roll you need to assault, this makes it a poor choice.

 

For BA, the infernus pistol is better in nearly all regards than the plasma (have to be within 6" to use it, so will probably still be in assault range), and even that is inferior to the 12" range meltagun. However the Infernus becomes an option for 10pts on Sanguard, and sees some use.

 

10pts is a good balance, short of changing rules. An ideal situation would be that pistols fire at I10 in the assault phase, instead of the shooting phase, if you want to charge.

 

What about gunslinger?

[totgeboren]

But it is worse than a plasmagun in every way, yet many think it should cost the same? Why? If it is 10 pts for CSM, Raptors, Chosen and so on, there is literally no reason at all to buy the pistol instead of a meltagun. Therefore I think 10 pts is too much. On characters, 10 pts might be ok, but that's only because they seem to have lost their boltguns.

[Minsc]

But it is worse than a plasmagun in every way, yet many think it should cost the same? Why? If it is 10 pts for CSM, Raptors, Chosen and so on, there is literally no reason at all to buy the pistol instead of a meltagun. Therefore I think 10 pts is too much. On characters, 10 pts might be ok, but that's only because they seem to have lost their boltguns.

 

CSM and Raptor-champions can't take a meltagun, so there would still be a reason to give a plasma pistol to the champion. 

[Excessus]

Why should the plasma-pistol cost the same as meltaguns? Same range, less strength, less AP, gets hot and no melta? In almost all cases it replaces a close combat weapon already so it won't make any difference in cc, and at least in codex CSM the melta almost never replaces the models ccw, and where it does you can buy it extra which would still be worth it to get a meltagun instead of a plasma pistol...

[totgeboren]

 

 

But it is worse than a plasmagun in every way, yet many think it should cost the same? Why? If it is 10 pts for CSM, Raptors, Chosen and so on, there is literally no reason at all to buy the pistol instead of a meltagun. Therefore I think 10 pts is too much. On characters, 10 pts might be ok, but that's only because they seem to have lost their boltguns.

CSM and Raptor-champions can't take a meltagun, so there would still be a reason to give a plasma pistol to the champion.

 

 

 

Yeah, that's what I ment by "On characters, 10 pts might be ok". On squad member, I definitely think 5 points is what they are worth at most, considering what you give up (plasmagun, meltagun and flamer are all better choices imo).

[Iron_Within]

 

10 points is good. No other pistol uses its S and AP in close combat in this edition so I see no reason why plasma pistols should be an exception.

Ive always thought that 1 attack should be able to be made with a pistol. So in that vein a plasma pistol would be useful as it gives 1 high strength attack whereas a power weapon allows all your attacks to have an ap

[Rasclomalum]

@ Iron_Within

 

Would you allow a gunslinger to fire both pistols or would it still just be one attack? The latter seems more in line with how close combat calculations work in general, but let's entertain the notion of firing both pistols for a while. 

 

John Woo the Chaos Lord, Favoured son of Slaanesh. He has two plasma pistols. He pretty much always strikes first in assaults and challenges with his guns akimbo. John has 3 attacks base, gets an additional attack in close combat for wielding two pistols and we'll assume he's the one doing the charging. So, five attacks in total. Two of these attacks will be at S7 AP2 and the rest S:user AP-. 

 

Assuming we're always hitting on 3's and the enemy has no invulnerable save, FnP or other niceties, John will inflict these wounds on something with a 3+ armour save: 

 

T3: 1.555

T4: 1.444

T5: 1.322

T6: 1.0

T7: 0.778

T8: 0.444

 

Against something with a 2+ save, we're looking at this:

 

T3: 1.333

T4: 1.278

T5: 1.222

T6: 0.945

T7: 0.723

T8: 0.444

 

Let's run the same math with fisticlaws. Let's say we're hitting against 3+ with the claw. We get this: 

 

T3: 2.963

T4: 2.222

T5: 1.481

T6: 0.741

T7: 0.741

T8: 0.000

 

... and then the fist against 2+: 

 

T3: 2.778

T4: 2.778

T5: 2.778

T6: 2.778

T7: 2.222

T8: 1.667

 

 

Dual pistols will be worse than the Freddy Krueger side of fisticlaws against 3+ up until T6, where the balance shifts in favour of the pistols. The fist will be more than twice as good against anything 2+, but has the drawback of being unwieldy. Of course, the pistols permit shooting. On the other hand, the pistols get hot. I don't know, I am biased because I want a cool generic gunslinger character to lead my armies. I'll leave it to unbiased, better minds than mine to figure out the balancing issues, I'm just putting out the numbers. 

[Nehekhare]

how about a generalist approach?

 

instead of it's normal close combat attacks, a model may shoot a single ranged weapon (or two pistols as per gunslinger), using it's BS against the WS of the target on the close combat to-hit-chart to determine whether a hit is scored. Weapons with the blast rule may not be fired this way (too risky), while weapons with the template rule automatically score d3 hits. Heavy weapons only hit on a d6 roll of 6. Cover saves cannot be taken against wounds caused by such attacks.

[the jeske]

IMO plasma pistols are just fine the way they are now . Don't see a problem with them unless someone tries to use berzerkers , but to do that the player would have to be a hardcore WE one.

[Xenith]

 

 

Problem is in assault armies that the plasma shot, while a near-guaranteed kill on BS5, it means that you are increasing the roll you need to assault, this makes it a poor choice.

 

For BA, the infernus pistol is better in nearly all regards than the plasma (have to be within 6" to use it, so will probably still be in assault range), and even that is inferior to the 12" range meltagun. However the Infernus becomes an option for 10pts on Sanguard, and sees some use.

 

10pts is a good balance, short of changing rules. An ideal situation would be that pistols fire at I10 in the assault phase, instead of the shooting phase, if you want to charge.

 

What about gunslinger?

 

 

I don't get you. What about Gunslinger?

[Plague Angel]

how about a generalist approach?

 

instead of it's normal close combat attacks, a model may shoot a single ranged weapon (or two pistols as per gunslinger), using it's BS against the WS of the target on the close combat to-hit-chart to determine whether a hit is scored. Weapons with the blast rule may not be fired this way (too risky), while weapons with the template rule automatically score d3 hits. Heavy weapons only hit on a d6 roll of 6. Cover saves cannot be taken against wounds caused by such attacks.

 

This rumor was flying around for 6th anyways. I'd limit it to pistols, and I imagine it'd still use WS instead of BS, just like using grenades in CC.

[incinerator950]

 

 

Problem is in assault armies that the plasma shot, while a near-guaranteed kill on BS5, it means that you are increasing the roll you need to assault, this makes it a poor choice.

 

For BA, the infernus pistol is better in nearly all regards than the plasma (have to be within 6" to use it, so will probably still be in assault range), and even that is inferior to the 12" range meltagun. However the Infernus becomes an option for 10pts on Sanguard, and sees some use.

 

10pts is a good balance, short of changing rules. An ideal situation would be that pistols fire at I10 in the assault phase, instead of the shooting phase, if you want to charge.

 

What about gunslinger?

 

I don't get you. What about Gunslinger?

Nevermind. 

[Lysere]

 

how about a generalist approach?

 

instead of it's normal close combat attacks, a model may shoot a single ranged weapon (or two pistols as per gunslinger), using it's BS against the WS of the target on the close combat to-hit-chart to determine whether a hit is scored. Weapons with the blast rule may not be fired this way (too risky), while weapons with the template rule automatically score d3 hits. Heavy weapons only hit on a d6 roll of 6. Cover saves cannot be taken against wounds caused by such attacks.

 

This rumor was flying around for 6th anyways. I'd limit it to pistols, and I imagine it'd still use WS instead of BS, just like using grenades in CC.

 

WS instead of BS, limited to one shot per pistol (max 2 with gunsligner), follows normal rules for the weapon as far as stats. I'd say no template weapons either though unless you made failed wounds actually pass but are applied to the unit the firer is with. Otherwise leave template weapons to overwatch and shooting phase only. They already pretty good. Don't need to give Necron AP 3 templates of fun more utility, or the noise marines AP 3 Template either. I'd say probably just leave it pistols, other ranged weapons simply being too unwieldy to use in combat. That's what hitting people with the gun is for.

[Cap'm Heckus]

I vote S6 Ap2 pistol gets hot,  8 pts across the board (sarge to trooper). 

 

I take them from time to time.  More often than not it never gets fired if its on a champion (once at most).  On the otherhand, I had 3 in a Berserker squad and they brought down a BA flying transport killing all but 2 marines inside in the crash (hooray for pistols that can penetrate an AV12 vehicle and get +1 on the splodey chart).