destroyer weapon vs LO,S

[khurdur]

Gentlemen, how is this played? If a squads takes wounds from a Strength D weapon, can I throw wounds off ICs onto the unit as per look out sir? It isn't exactly a saving roll to be ignored by the S:D...

[Fibonacci]

The LO,S rule starts off with "When a wound is allocated to one of your characters".

 

D weapons are resolved differently than normal.  Once a hit is scored, it rolls to see how many wounds it causes.  Taking the most common roll, the rule states "Seriously Wounded: The model loses D3 + 1 Wounds."

 

That sounds like wound allocation to me.  So the character could make up to D3 + 1 Look Out, Sir tests -- one for each wound.

[Morollan]

Gentlemen, how is this played? If a squads takes wounds from a Strength D weapon, can I throw wounds off ICs onto the unit as per look out sir? It isn't exactly a saving roll to be ignored by the S:D...

 

Neither is FNP or Reanimation Protocols but they're both ignored. I'd say no, because throwing yourself in front of a D weapon really wouldn't protect the person you're trying to shelter.

[Fibonacci]

Look Out Sir is not included in the list of D weapon rules, nor is it a special rule that would negate a wound.  Some model is taking that wound and that model will not be able to make armor save, invulnertable saves, FNP or Reanimation Protocol tests. 

 

As for the fluff argument (as if it mattered) if you throw enough bodies -- including whole squads if necessary -- in front of the person you need to protect, you can protect them.

[Morollan]

Look Out Sir is not included in the list of D weapon rules, nor is it a special rule that would negate a wound

 

It's not included on the 'list' because there is no list, only a couple of examples. The rule says "No saving throws of any kind are allowed against damage from a

Destroyer weapon, including special rolls such as Feel No Pain or Necron Reanimation Protocols.". Given that the two examples shown are not in fact saving throws at all and, in the case of RP, would not negate the wound (only repair the damage after the event) I don't really see any justification for allowing any other 'special roll' to apply.

[Fibonacci]

And ... how does LO'S save against the damage?  It does not.  It reallocates the wounds but all damage is still taken.

[Gentlemanloser]

Woud this really make any difference at all?

 

You have a squad of 10 men and an IC.  The D Blast hits and deals 11 wounds.

 

You then allocate these one at a time, and LoS the first 10 wounds away onto other members of the Squad.

 

The 11 D strength wound then kills the IC.

 

Lo,S would only really effect non blast, limited shot D weapon hits.

[Morollan]

And ... how does LO'S save against the damage?  It does not.  It reallocates the wounds but all damage is still taken.

 

How does RP save against the damage? It doesn't, it repairs it afterwards. FNP is also not a save. Yet both were included amongst the "special rolls" that are not allowed. Just because LO,S was not specified as an example does not mean that it should be allowed when other abilities are not. Throwing yourself in front of a nuke is not going to save the guy behind you.

[Kristoff]

 

 

And ... how does LO'S save against the damage?  It does not.  It reallocates the wounds but all damage is still taken.

 

How does RP save against the damage? It doesn't, it repairs it afterwards. FNP is also not a save. Yet both were included amongst the "special rolls" that are not allowed. Just because LO,S was not specified as an example does not mean that it should be allowed when other abilities are not. Throwing yourself in front of a nuke is not going to save the guy behind you.

 

 

LOS! does not even act like a Save and takes place before any Save can be attempted. As was pointed out, LOS! is a reAllocation of Wounds, and does not resemble a Save, as any Wounds are still processed normally otherwise.

[Morollan]

 

 

And ... how does LO'S save against the damage?  It does not.  It reallocates the wounds but all damage is still taken.

 

How does RP save against the damage? It doesn't, it repairs it afterwards. FNP is also not a save. Yet both were included amongst the "special rolls" that are not allowed. Just because LO,S was not specified as an example does not mean that it should be allowed when other abilities are not. Throwing yourself in front of a nuke is not going to save the guy behind you.

 

LOS! does not even act like a Save and takes place before any Save can be attempted. As was pointed out, LOS! is a reAllocation of Wounds, and does not resemble a Save, as any Wounds are still processed normally otherwise.

 

RP does not act like a save and takes place after any save can be attempted. You're not allowed to do that though so why would you be allowed to LO,S?

 

In all honesty, we're going round in circles and I doubt that anything short of a FAQ is going to resolve the issue as it's really just opinion on both sides.

[Fibonacci]

How does RP save against the damage?

It repairs it afterwards.

RP does not act like a save

Actually it is specified as an example exactly because it can be used to negate damage just like a save. As perviously mentiond, Look Out Sir is not a saving throw nor does it prevent damage in any way and thus does not follow under the "special rules" clause.

In all honesty, we're going round in circles and I doubt that anything short of a FAQ is going to resolve the issue as it's really just opinion on both sides.

Look, Reanimation Protocol is not in question here. It boils down to this: does Look Out, Sir in any way "save against damage" done?

 

Merged double post, Dam13n.

[Kristoff]

RP does not act like a save and takes place after any save can be attempted. You're not allowed to do that though so why would you be allowed to LO,S?

Again, because LOS! does not stop, prevent, ignore, or repair damage, it just changes which model is damaged.

[jeffersonian000]

Actually, there seems to be a misunderstanding on how D Strength damage is allocated. No wound pool is generated, each model hit receives the damage result. If a squad of 10 + 1 IC is hit by a D Str attack, and only 3 models are covered by the blast marker, those 3 models are each dealt the result of the roll on the D Weapon damage table (0-12 wounds, no saves, etc). If each model is dealt, say, 5 wounds each, then it is only those models that have to soak those 5 wounds each with no overkill moving on to the remaining squad members. If the IC is one of those 3, the IC is soaking 5 unsave-able wounds all on his or her own.

 

As to Look Out, Sir!, per my reading on it, you could in fact LO,S the D Str wounds, simply due to the wounds being reassigned rather than ignored. However, that''s more of a HIWPI than RAW or RAI.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

If there's no wound pool, and no wounds to allocate, then you can't Lo,S! them.

 

 

When a.Wound (or unsaved Wound) is allocated to one of your characters

 

With 'allocation' here directly referencing;

 

 

Allocate Wounds
First, allocate a Wound from the Wound
pool to the enemy
model closest to the firing unit.

 

No wound pool, no allocation, no Lo,S!.

[Raeven]

You still generate a wound pool.  It's just a wound pool for each individual model instead of a wound pool against the entire unit.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's not really a wound pool though. ;)

[Raeven]

Eh.  You're over interpreting the rules.

 

If the only way to allocate a wound to a model is to pull it from a wound pool, then no model can ever be destroyed by Destroyer weapons.  

[Ming]

LOL. A wound pool is generated when a unit (or single model) hits a target unit and causes wounds. The pool gets complicated when the unit doing the damage has more than one weapon type. The only real issue is whether or not the owner of said D weapon firing unit actually knows the rules and applies them in a fair and consistent manner on said victim unit and its player, who may or may not even own the same rules or have a unit packing a D weapon, and as such is a hapless victim. I'd allow my opponent to LO'S D-weapon impacts as you would any other wound source, following the core rule requirements for allocating wounds per direct or indirect firing.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not so.  There are instances where a mini suffers a wound without one being allocated from a 'wound pool'.

 

Perils of the Warp is one example (I'm sure there are others);

 

 

The Psyker immediately suffers 1 Wound with no saves of any kind allowed.

 

You also cannot take a Lo,S! roll on a Perils of the Warp wound.

 

Which is nearly identical in practice to a wound suffered from a D Strength weapon.

 

No wound pool, no allocation from pool, no ability to take a Lo,S! roll.

 

Edit: Get's Hot is another example;

 

 

the firing model immediately suffers a wound

 

 

Q: Can a character make a

Look out , Sir

attempt to pass a

Wound from an overheating Gets Hot weapon onto another

member of his squad? (p16)

A: No.

[Grey Mage]

 

DESTROYER WEAPONS

If a weapon has a D instead of a Strength value in its profile, it means it is a Destroyer

weapon. To resolve a Destroyer weapon's attack, roll To Hit as you would for a

standard attack. If the attack hits, roll on the table below instead of rolling To Wound

or for armour penetration. No saving throws of any kind are allowed against

damage from a Destroyer weapon, including special rolls such as Feel No Pain or

Necron Reanimation Protocols.

 

Taken directly from W40K Apocalypse, mobile edition.

 

Seems to me that since it would be done as per a normal attack, a wound pool would still be generated as normal, Im not getting where people think a wound pool isnt generated. You simply skip the roll to wound step, replacing it with the table- a fixed 'to wound' or 'to penetrate' system similar to haywire or poison.

[Dam13n]

That's pretty much how I see it too.

 

- You roll to hit

- You then roll a D6 for each hit, just like if you were rolling to wound.

- You'd then separate those D6 results into 3 piles.  1s, 2-5s and 6s.

- The 1's are discarded, as they fail to wound.

- You then begin allocation of those two "wound" pools with the shooting player deciding the order.

- When a Character gets allocated one of these "wounds" he can attempt a Look out Sir.

- Once a "wound" has been allocated, you'd roll the D3 or D6 as appropriate and work out just how many wounds the unfortunate target takes (unless it would just die regardless of the result).

 

Now this is RAI, as the RAW is completely lacking in this case, IMHO.

[Gentlemanloser]

GM, you didn't quote the damage table.

 

You roll to-hit *as normal* which means wounding and casualties/saves isn't *as normal*.

 

The table states;

 

 

Non-vehicle - Seriously Wounded: The model loses D3+1 Wounds.

 

The model.  Not unit.

 

There is no wound pool, there is no allocation.  Each *model* hit suffers wounds.  Exactly like Gets Hot and Perils.  Both of which you *cannot* take a Lo,S! roll for as well.

[Kristoff]

GM, you didn't quote the damage table.

 

You roll to-hit *as normal* which means wounding and casualties/saves isn't *as normal*.

 

The table states;

 

 

 

Non-vehicle - Seriously Wounded: The model loses D3+1 Wounds.

 

The model.  Not unit.

 

There is no wound pool, there is no allocation.  Each *model* hit suffers wounds.  Exactly like Gets Hot and Perils.  Both of which you *cannot* take a Lo,S! roll for as well.

 

 

The issue lies in one simple fact: There is no other method of allocating the Wounds provided by a Destroyer Weapon that is not a templated weapon of some kind. Melee and Shooting require allocation if the target is a multiple model unit. The way the Destroyer Weapons were written, it seems that they were completely intended to be used solely against one model units such as most Vehicles, Monstrous Creatures, and Super-Heavies, and not against multiple model units where any type of Wound or Hit Allocation of some kind is necessary.

[Gentlemanloser]

No they don't.

 

I've already given Perils and Gets Hot (and OK, you might make the distinction that while Perils can occur in the Shooting Phase, it's not a Shooting attack, but Gets Hot is a byproduct of a shooting attack).

 

There are also attacks like Cleansing Flame.

 

 

all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer one wound on a roll of 4+

 

Now, you could make an argument about Cleansing Flame still having to follow wound allocation.  Can you Lo,S! a Cleansing Flame wound?  I'd say no, based on it's wording and the wording of Gets Hot and Perils of the Warp.  But you'd still have grounds for an argument.

 

But D Strength Weapons *specifically* tell us their To-Wound process *is not standard*, and does not follow the Standard rules as laid out in the BRB.

 

There is no wound pool, and no wound allocation with Strength D weapon hits.

 

And as such you *cannot* take a Lo,S! roll on them.

 

Exactly the same for Perils and Gets Hot...

[Kristoff]

No they don't.

 

I've already given Perils and Gets Hot (and OK, you might make the distinction that while Perils can occur in the Shooting Phase, it's not a Shooting attack, but Gets Hot is a byproduct of a shooting attack).

 

There are also attacks like Cleansing Flame.

 

 

 

all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer one wound on a roll of 4+

Now, you could make an argument about Cleansing Flame still having to follow wound allocation. Can you Lo,S! a Cleansing Flame wound? I'd say no, based on it's wording and the wording of Gets Hot and Perils of the Warp. But you'd still have grounds for an argument.

 

But D Strength Weapons *specifically* tell us their To-Wound process *is not standard*, and does not follow the Standard rules as laid out in the BRB.

 

There is no wound pool, and no wound allocation with Strength D weapon hits.

 

And as such you *cannot* take a Lo,S! roll on them.

 

Exactly the same for Perils and Gets Hot...

You misunderstand. Gets Hot! and Perils already have a model designated by being the model that made an attempt and failed. Cleansing Flame does no allocate, but instead, applies generally.

 

In the case of the Imp Knight's melee weapon, such a case does not exist. If it is against a single model, this isn't an issue, but against an Honour Guard with a Chapter Master, there is no obvious model to receive the D hit, so some kind of allocation must be performed.

 

Even then, templates are a form of allocation as well, albeit, not in a standard format, akin to Barrage attacks.