MM & HF Speeder still a viable option?

[minigun762]

It used to be the Bee's Knees but I don't see it nearly as often as the Typhoon.

Is there still value in this choice?

[SyNidus]

Actually, that's something I haven't considered, but I'm suddenly very curious about them. I'd also like to hear how they fare.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I've loved using mine. I use it as DA so it's a part of the Ravenwing Squad usually scoring and I use it as Deepstrike 90% of the time. My friends hate it because they have no idea where or what it will hit. Usually I bring two so Two Heavy Flamer Templates or two Multi Melta's always do damage. Clears objectives really well to. I kind of use it as a sternguard pod bomb with a chance to actually hit something else later if they survive the retaliation. Plus Multi Melta means you don't need to be too close with your Deep Strike to get the Melta rule most often.

[minigun762]

I've loved using mine. I use it as DA so it's a part of the Ravenwing Squad usually scoring and I use it as Deepstrike 90% of the time. My friends hate it because they have no idea where or what it will hit. Usually I bring two so Two Heavy Flamer Templates or two Multi Melta's always do damage. Clears objectives really well to. I kind of use it as a sternguard pod bomb with a chance to actually hit something else later if they survive the retaliation. Plus Multi Melta means you don't need to be too close with your Deep Strike to get the Melta rule most often.

That was my thinking, using a pair as cheaper Sternguard equivalents. Mixed weapons lets me handle bubble wrap squads or heavy armor and against infantry, weak MCs and light armor, both weapons are effective.

 

All for less than a naked 5 man SG squad in a Pod.

[Tiger9gamer]

I never really used it (all my speeders are typhoons) but if you have scarier things in your army they might ignore it? for a badab war campaign my club is doing i'm going to be astral claws, so all the speeders get scout. It could be a great alpha strike attack!

[Azash]

With short range weapons, krak grenades, and 6th ed vehicle assault rules it seems like a 2 shot suicide unit and those two shots unless your shooting the melta at a vehicle isn't going to net you first blood.

 

Think about it if your in melta range they are in charge range. How many str 6 kraks does it take to pop the WS 1 (assuming its moved) land speeder.

 

To have a good chance of getting a kill we are taliking multiple speeders. Now we are up to 140-210 pts in a squadron cause using up the talons fast attack spots is not good. For 135 pts I can take 5 lotd with combi melta, melta, and multimelta, reroll my deep strike, get an invulnerable, those three shots have ignores cover.

[knife&fork]

Speeder squads is a really bad idea if you kit them with short range guns. Assaults do terrible, terrible things to them. 

 

Single speeders if you can reliably DS them, squads only if you go typhoon/dual HB and keep your distance. 

 

Coupled with a pod (locator beacon) they could be interesting in a salamanders force because of the inexpensive TL HF?

[minigun762]

With short range weapons, krak grenades, and 6th ed vehicle assault rules it seems like a 2 shot suicide unit and those two shots unless your shooting the melta at a vehicle isn't going to net you first blood.

 

Think about it if your in melta range they are in charge range. How many str 6 kraks does it take to pop the WS 1 (assuming its moved) land speeder.

 

To have a good chance of getting a kill we are taliking multiple speeders. Now we are up to 140-210 pts in a squadron cause using up the talons fast attack spots is not good. For 135 pts I can take 5 lotd with combi melta, melta, and multimelta, reroll my deep strike, get an invulnerable, those three shots have ignores cover.

 

LotD is a good alternative, especially in Salamander list. 

I still argue that a pair of MM/HF speeders is still cheaper than suicide command or SG squads and gets the same job done. 

[Azash]

I don't believe it gets the same job done though because it doesn't have equvelant fire power.

 

2-5 combi melta shots v 1 mm shot

10 shots w/ specialty ammo 12" range v 1 template 7.5" range.

 

The speeder was better in 5th because the rules were way more vehicle friendly...it took a 6 to hit a speeder in close combat as an example. Consequently 5th was more vehicle heavy and one melta shot suicide units were more viable.

 

As an example unless your opponent really makes a mistake how can a speeder get first blood reliably in a meta dominated at its core by infantry units (specially cheap blobs) and multi wound monstrous creatures?

[knife&fork]

Well he said pair. A single speeder with one gun obviously isn't going to match the unit more than twice as expensive.

 

Speeders are very unlikely to help anyone but the opponent get 'first blood' since they either expose themselves or show up turn 2 at the earliest. 

 

They could work if you have a place to fill in your list for late game infantry killing or demeching. 

[Giga]

Used mine quite a bit in 6th ed. Got lucky a few times with deep strikes and managed to blow up land raiders and such. 

 

The rest of the time they were either mildly (in)effective at best, or free killpoints at worst. 

[Gideon999]

I would say no as well.   I had 2 like this, and quickly realized that they would not accomplish the mission the way rthey used to.   I modded them to serve as twin multimelta speeders, and they are great in that roll.   2 MM shots on a deepstrike is a heck of a lot more reliable than 2 speeders with MM/HF since you spend way less points for the same number of shots, easier deepstrike, and also more fun to use against 2+ armour infantry if you have no good vehicle targets.

 

Still, honestly I would say the LotD or Sternies do this better for the points.   Speeders are just SO fragile.   I rarely use even my typhoons anymore.   :-(

[minigun762]

I can see the weapon loadout argument vs other options but I don't think I buy the idea that two AV10 Speeders are any less durable than 5 MEQs.

[Azash]

I can see the weapon loadout argument vs other options but I don't think I buy the idea that two AV10 Speeders are any less durable than 5 MEQs.

3+ armor and 5 wounds vs 5+ cover and 4 hull points. Also we can look at an explode result as an instant death for the vehicle so you can effectively be destroyed with 1 shot.

 

The higher the str of the weapon the less effect it has on the squad. Shooting a marine with a str 7 ap4 quad gun is no different once the wound is inflicted than shooting a marine with a str 3 ap - weapon. If you shoot a marine with an ap3 or better the marine can seek cover and get a cover save. If your clever with the drop pod deployment your getting a 5+ from that and you can always go to ground for a +1. If you lose 25% you have a morale save but even if you fail ATSKNF kicks in. If your opponent assaults you have 2 attacks per model and I4 S4 and 3+ armor again and overwatch.

 

Conversely a speeder has no other options any high str attack is effective because once pinned or glanced there is no armor save. It gets a cover save but that's a 5+ only and anything that ignores cover it has nothing to fall back on.

 

Then we get into the effects of penetrating hits. Not only did the speeder take a wound but now it can't move or shoot...there went the 5+, its immobilized, lost a weapon, etc. All of which outside of an explode result seriously degrade a speeder squadron. If one model is can't move can't shoot the other has to stay within coherency.

 

Now if you get assaulted you are WS 2, 0 attacks, and no cover saves cause your in cc. Since everyone and his brother has kraks everyone taking a shot at you is str 6. Also if you got immobilized in any fashion the opponent auto hits you. Oh and since its a vehicle, no overwatch.

 

Now we look at everyone's favorite and most common anti deep strike/infiltrate defense the ubiquitous quad gun. Run the numbers on the punishment a quad gun is likely to inflict on a 2 vehicle speeder squadron vs 5 marines coming out of a drop pod.

 

That is why 5 marines are more survivable than two speeders.

[Fibonacci]

If tiy actually do the math you may find different results.

 

2 Land speeders = 4 HP. Since only 2/3 of the shots will pass through jink, it takes 4*3/2 glance or better hits. 

Take the standard bolter for now.  It needs a 6 to glance so 36 hits with take out 2 speeders,

36 hits will cause 18 wounds to MEQ.  2/3 will save so 6 total dead MEQ.  Point 2 Speeders

 

Move on up the food chain ... next is the autocanon.

Of an AC's "glance or better" rolls 3/6 will penitrate.  On the damage table, 2/6 rolls will effectively kill the speeder.  Of the killing pens, 1/2 will be the second HP done and not make a difference.

 

6*3/6*2/6*1/2 = 0.5 hits will kill a speeser that has 2 HP thus needing a total of 5.5 glance or better hits.

glancing on 3 (4/6 chances)

5.5*6/4=8.25  hits

8.25 hits on MEQ will cause 6.875 wounds or about 2.3 dead marines after saves.  Point 5 marines.

 

 

Plasmaguns! 

Almost like the AC but now 3 or 6 rolls on the damage table will insta-kill a 2 HP model.

6*3/6*3/6*1/2 = 0.75

5.25 glance or better *6/4 = 7.875 hits required

7.875plasma hits on MEQ = 6.5625 wounds with no saves so 6.5625 dead marines.  Point 2 Land Speeders

 

Break out the lascannon

6 glance or better.  5/6 are "or better."  3 of the damage table rolls will kill.

6 hits*5/6*3/6*1/2 = 1.25 instant 2 HP kills or 4.75 total LC glance or better hits.

Since they are ALL glance or better 4.75 total hits.

Against MEQ, 4.75 = about 3.96 dead MEQ.  Point 5 marines.

 

Bring on the baledrake!

One baledrake shot can hit 2 LS.  No cover allowed!  2 hits means 2 hits.  5/6 will glance or better.  2/6 will instant kill

The math is going a different direction this time.  What can 1 heldrake do?

2 hits.  10/6 glance or better.  2/3 will be pens, 2/6 will be instant kills and 1/2 will be on 2 HP models for 0.185 addition HP loss.

So 1 baledrake will cause 1.85 HP loss. So to do 4 HP total will require 2.16 baleflamers.

1 baleflamer on 5 MEQ will hit 5 MEQ, cause 4.16 wounds and no saves.  2.16 baleflamers would then do 9 MEQ kills.  Point 2 Speeders.

 

Well, thats the dreaded baleflamers.  What about normal flamers?  No cover and still give armor saves.

2 hits on speeders.  2/6 will glance.  no cover, no pens, 1 flamer will cause .33 HP loss.  It will take 12 flamers to remove those 4 HP.

12 flamer will hit 60 MEQ, cause 30 wounds, 2/3 will save for 10 dead MEQ.  Point 2 Land Speeders.

 

In close combat Land Speeders simply move away.  They have the mobility to stay out of CC and can never be locked in combat.

 

Marines can seek cover?  Land Speeders can improve their cover.

 

In my honest opinion, it's a wash.  No one is going to baleflame land speeders when a pack of infantry is on the table, nor are they going to fire lascannons at troops if a squad of vehicles are avalable.  The units are to different with different rolles and different rules to even be judged against each other.  Each is worth their point value for the job they do.

[Azash]

The point of the discussion I think you failed to realize is folks are having them do the same thing. Five drop podding sternguard alpha strike for first blood vs 2 deep striking speeders as alpha strike first blood getters. That's what they excelled during the previous edition.

 

You have produced a great statistical abstract however your abstract is just that an abstract it fails to take in actual in game realities of how the units are used and the situations those uses create. Those situations actually alter the variables which the practical statistical outcome relies on.

[minigun762]

If we are less of a fan of the split loadout, what about the paired version?

 

I see obvious value in the dual MM Speeder for busting tanks but I'm actually more excited by the dual heavy flamer version. Cheaper even then a Whirlwind but seems like the perfect counter to any light infantry squad.

[SyNidus]

Actually, I can definitely see a lot of use for both paired versions. Especially the dual Flamer option. They will easily put a lot of wounds on most infantry units, yes, even termies. Light infantry squads, well they'll just drop like flies.

[Gideon999]

For sure, however my personal opinion would be that you can swap that dual HF speeder to a 5 man assault squad in a pod with 2 flamers.   Doesnt hit quite as hard but is way more survivable, can score and can threaten stronger things with krak grenades, etc.  

 

Still, the infantry I think will be more survivable in that alpha strike role when attacking tanks (maybe not infantry though), but the sole reason that you need them to be inside 12" for melta, and that pretty much guarantees the other guy can reach you with something nasty next turn which negates the range a bit.

 

 

*edit* sorry, assault squads dont score...  derp....

[Azash]

Seems like I'm always the negative nelly when it comes to speeders. With the 2x HF build yes it can be devastating but how do you implement it?

 

The template is 7.5" and to get maximum effect realistically we are talking 2" away...aka point blank range. You have armor 10 and two hull points this pretty much rules out advancing across the field. An opponent looking at that isn't gonna let it get close enough.

 

So now we are deep striking...any deviation on the deep strike away from the target and you minimize the effectiveness of the HF's. Any deviation towards the target and you are mishaping. In short the margins for pulling this off have no room for error but are completely random.

 

In order to fix that we are talking a homing beacon of some type but bundling points into other units to make a marginal tactic effective will lead to an overall weaker list.

 

The effective speeder builds i believe are typhoons (pretty obvious) and a 2x HB speeder. The latter allows the speeder the range to keep away from nastier short range weaponry and grenade assaults, allows you too move to get jink and still stay on target, put 12 shots a round into a target, and it costs 120 pts.

[minigun762]

It's always good to see other player's views.

Where you see the low durability of the speeder as reason to stay at range, I see it as reason to get close with the more dangerous weapons. With all of the S5+ shooting, I don't know how safe a Speeder really is at range and so I'm already making an assumption that running any speeder is running a suicide unit. That pushes me towards the weapons that make the most impact in a single turn of shooting.

 

That said, maybe I underestimate the Speeder's life span outside 24".

[Gideon999]

The 24" and larger ranges for speeders do make a difference, but as always it really depends on who you play and the army they use.   I find that my regular foes are orks, guard and nidz.   So for me the attraction of 2 HFs on a speeder is huge, but in practice what Azash said is precisely what happened :

 

 - I either deepstrike and miss (giving easy kills to the other guy)

 - I run up the field and he spaces his guys out for minimal kills and usually shoots me down before I get close enough

 - I get a good deepstike, flame a few guys and the speeder dies next turn.

 

Sure I get some kills, but the points dont even out.  The assault squad gives me almost as much killing power, and a pod for cover.   A little more expensive, but seems just way better (to me).

 

Now I use typhoons a lot as well, and those are amazing.   At 30-36 inches the orks can't touch them so I can shoot with impunity (aside from lootas of course, but I am fine losing a 75pt speeder to soak up a volley of loota fire sometimes) and at 40-48" only the guard can touch them an usually they have better things to shoot at (or they soak up a bunch of fire that keeps my troops alive). 

 

Inside 24" I find that the only thing that was worth it was the multimeltas.   Not even  assault cannons were worth it (too expensive and didnt do the job as well as either dual HF or dual MM).

 

As always of course, YMMV.