b1soul Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Luna Wolves are commonly touted as #1 followed by Ultramarines and Dark Angels Any idea of how the other GC-era legions are ranked based on the amount of conquered territory added to the Imperium Apparently, the Word Beares were too slow because they spent too much religiously indoctrating the conquered inhabitants Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoros Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 That was at first. In the last... 50 or so years they probably became the fastest-conquering Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3643829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Luna Wolves are commonly touted as #1 followed by Ultramarines and Dark Angels A common mistake. Though understandably so, since the 3rd Edition Index Astartes article of the Luna Wolves did claim that they liberated the most worlds out of all the Legions. However, both the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, as well as the 6th Edition Rulebook (p. 187) state that it was the Ultramarines who liberated the most worlds. The 2nd Edition Codex had even explained why that was the case. Setting up secure trade and supply routes allowed the Ultramarines to progress faster than any other Legion. And then they started to grow in strength, which would probably have increased their rate of progress even further. Plus, the Index Astartes article of the Luna Wolves itself called their success into question, describing how the Luna Wolves often left the cleaning up to other Legions, and their successes were sometimes based on the efforts of other Legions they had worked in concert with. (Though that might have been described in the Index Astartes of the Raven Guard). So what we know about the Progress rates (or just shere amount of liberated worlds) of the Legions and a possible ranking would be this: 1. Ultramarines 2. Luna Wolves ...Near bottoom: Alpha Legion 18. Word Bearers I don't think there ever were descriptions for the other Legions, though the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and the Imperial Fists probably share the rest of the top 5 spots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3643856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millicant Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 The Dark Angels have never been ranked or graded in terms of territory added or number of worlds conquered. However, multiple fluff sources (including the codex I believe) state that The Lion and his Dark Angels had the most "victories" second only to Horus. Interpret as you will. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Fools, all this territory was conquered by the Alpha Legion disguised as the other legions... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 multiple fluff sources (including the codex I believe) state that The Lion and his Dark Angels had the most "victories" second only to Horus. Yes. That is usually stated in the Dark Angels Codices. It was said in the 2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death and in the 4th Edition Codex Dark Angels. (It is absent from the 6th Edition Codex, now only stating that Jonson had more victories than Russ.) The most reasonable explanation (other than "you choose which account you believe") I found was that not every military victory equates to a new world joining the Imperium. Every destroyed alien world, every defeated alien or rebel fleet, each loyal world defended from invaders would count as a victory, but not add a new world to the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 The First Heretic gives a list of the "glory Legions" who conquered the most as the Sons of Horus, Ultramarines, Dark Angels, and the Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 The First Heretic gives a list of the "glory Legions" who conquered the most as the Sons of Horus, Ultramarines, Dark Angels, and the Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 The First Heretic gives a list of the "glory Legions" who conquered the most as the Sons of Horus, Ultramarines, Dark Angels, and the Word Bearers. So, what, the rest of us don't even get a delegated ceremonial bitch slap? No? What about a few hairy lapdogs and a sternly worded letter? Really, cousins, nothing at all? *sigh* HEY HORUS, GUILLIMAN SAID DAD WOULD BEAT YOU IN A FIGHT. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 1. Iron Warriors. A single fortress world is a key to untold tracts of space. Just look at Cadia. 2. Death Guard. Death worlds are essentially fortress worlds without walls. Guess what my two favourite legions are Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Pretty sure it was once said the Imperial Fists were amongst those who took the most worlds up until the Emperor decided to withdraw and take them with him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Bottom would be the Thousand Sons. Only a handful of them and they rarely seemed to be in a hurry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormborn Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Personally I see the list being something like this. 1 Luna Wolves - much as dislike Horus he was made warmaster 2 Dark Angels - 2nd only to horus 3 Ultramarines 4 Imperial Fists - Must be a reason they were sent back to Terra to guard it 5 Blood Angels 6 Death Guard 7 Space Wolves 8 White Scars 9 Raven Guard 10 Thousand Sons 11 Alpha Legion 12 Salamanders 13 Iron Hands 14 Word Bearers - although they apparently went on a bit of a tear after being chastised, not sure they could have made up for all the church buildiing 15 Emperors Children - only about 200 marines prior to Horus being made warmaster 16 World Eaters - destroyed a lot of worlds, not sure they took much teritory 17 Night Lords - ditto 18 Iron Warriors - wasn't perturbo grumpy because his guys always got stuck digging ditches, attacking fortifications & garrisoning worlds Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 2 Dark Angels - 2nd only to horus (...) 7 Space Wolves So why aren't the Space Wolves 3rd? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Pretty sure it was once said the Imperial Fists were amongst those who took the most worlds up until the Emperor decided to withdraw and take them with him. So? It doesn't matter how far ahead you were, you can't win a race by quitting halfway through. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 "Canonically"(if such a word is applicable), the Ultramarines brought the most worlds into compliance. The XVI had the most victories. The Night Lord explored the most territory, with the IA article saying that after Nostramo, the VIII Legion went so far into unknown territories that the Imperium had to send recon fleets just to see if they still persisted. And the list goes on. The reality is, you have to define "most territory". The problem is that when you define "most territory", you automatically pick a winner. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 I like what Wade just said. We don't know when the "race" started. Maybe the race started when all the Primarchs were found. Or when the legions were created. Each Legion probably had a different yardstick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormborn Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 2 Dark Angels - 2nd only to horus (...) 7 Space Wolves So why aren't the Space Wolves 3rd? I only did a list because I like lists I haven't researched it nor do I endorse it as being in anyway accurate. However, my understanding is that the wolves are one of the smallest legions and as such I felt it more likely that the UMs as one of the largest legions would have made more worlds compliant this is why the wolves are in 7th. Given the lack of information available I think anyone with the time or inclination could place any of half a dozen legions in 3rd place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted April 6, 2014 Author Share Posted April 6, 2014 However, my understanding is that the wolves are one of the smallest legions. I believe in Prospero Burns the Space Wolves acknowledge that they heavily outnumber the TSons. There are like what...10,000 TSons before the Battle of Prospero. I'm thinking the Wolves are not a large legion right before the Battle, but I don't think they're small like the TSons or the Emperor's Children. 1. Iron Warriors. A single fortress world is a key to untold tracts of space. Just look at Cadia. 2. Death Guard. Death worlds are essentially fortress worlds without walls. Guess what my two favourite legions are Hmm...Imperial Fists and White Scars? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Everything I've heard is that the Wolves and Sons were equal strength, and that the numbers presented in A Thousand Sons were going to be retconned into being larger since the Salamanders are directly stated to be the smallest Legion and numbering quite a bit more than ten thousand. At least 40,000 IIRC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Everything I've heard is that the Wolves and Sons were equal strength, and that the numbers presented in A Thousand Sons were going to be retconned into being larger since the Salamanders are directly stated to be the smallest Legion and numbering quite a bit more than ten thousand. At least 40,000 IIRC."These figures would tally with commonly held estimates of a total active strength for the Salamanders Legion at the end of the Great Crusade of approximately 89,000 Legiones Astartes, placing them as among the smallest overall of the Legions in manpower." p 121, Massacre Among the smallest, not the smallest. Though 40,000 would still be acceptable, that said. And I guess, now that I am reading that quote again, that there actually has been an additional retcon of Legion numbers. Before, 10k was the average size. Then, 100k was. Now, 100k is considered small, with a Legion that is nearly that considered to be among the smallest. Edit: Though interestingly, they kept the original figure of total Salamander survivors multiplied by a factor of ten (7k rather than 700), so it isn't as much a retcon and more a shift of averages. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3644971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Everything I've heard is that the Wolves and Sons were equal strength, and that the numbers presented in A Thousand Sons were going to be retconned into being larger since the Salamanders are directly stated to be the smallest Legion and numbering quite a bit more than ten thousand. At least 40,000 IIRC."These figures would tally with commonly held estimates of a total active strength for the Salamanders Legion at the end of the Great Crusade of approximately 89,000 Legiones Astartes, placing them as among the smallest overall of the Legions in manpower." p 121, Massacre Among the smallest, not the smallest. Though 40,000 would still be acceptable, that said. And I guess, now that I am reading that quote again, that there actually has been an additional retcon of Legion numbers. Before, 10k was the average size. Then, 100k was. Now, 100k is considered small, with a Legion that is nearly that considered to be among the smallest. Edit: Though interestingly, they kept the original figure of total Salamander survivors multiplied by a factor of ten (7k rather than 700), so it isn't as much a retcon and more a shift of averages. Ah. Still, if "among the smallest" is 89,000, then 10,000 must be minuscule. So that would seem to go along with this post by A D-B. Cheers guys this makes it a little bit more reasonable than I imagined, I really had the impression that they were down to the last few gunslingers. This would make more sense I'd kind of forgotten how clever they are and also that they did'nt degenerate like the EC, WB, WE and DG. Thanks for clearing that up. Basically, take any numbers in any Horus Heresy novel before The First Heretic, (and Prospero Burns, which was written before TFH) and times the numbers by 10. Remember as well that a lot of the Thousand Sons weren't on Prospero at the time. tl;dr -- Thousands and thousands. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3645002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted April 7, 2014 Author Share Posted April 7, 2014 Everything I've heard is that the Wolves and Sons were equal strength, Your sources? I'm basing my statements on Prospero Burns, not A Thousand Sons. Have you read PB, which was released after ATS? the numbers presented in A Thousand Sons were going to be retconned into being larger since the Salamanders are directly stated to be the smallest Legion and numbering quite a bit more than ten thousand. At least 40,000 IIRC. Well, until this possible retcon becomes official, I'm sticking with ATS and PB Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3645357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyld Fireblade Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I do not have the books with me at the moment so I cannot give direct references. The following list is the various sizes or references to size I remember from the FW books and BL novels. All numbers are just prior to the Heresy. Sons of Horus: 130k-170k World Eaters: 150k Emperor's Children: 110k Death Guard: 95k Iron Hands: 113k Night Lords: 90k-120k Salamanders: 89k Word Bearers: 140k-200k Dark Angels: ? Iron Warriors: ? White Scars: ? Imperial Fists: ? Blood Angels: 120k Ultramarines: 250k Alpha Legion: ? Raven Guard: 80k The Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves are the most confusing. Preretcon the TS numbered 9k in A Thousand Sons and were the smallest. If we follow ABD's advice and multiply by ten then they have 90k (no longer the smallest). In Prospero Burns I believe I remember it mentioning that the Wolves were several times the size of the TS, by several I am going to assume x3. As has already been pointed out some of the TS were off world so the the SW were probably more like double the size of the TS. That would put them at 180k which I think is too much. If the TS are going to stay the smallest legion then they should end up at roughly 70k (best guess). That would leave the SW at 140k and comparable to the NL, WE, and probably the DA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3645407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 The quote from the 2nd ed Space Wolves codex was something along the lines of "Never a large Legion". Then in Scars we have Bjorn addressing the reasons as to why the Wolves are on the small side before purging Prospero. So at the end of the Great Crusade I would place the Wolves just south of 100K. Just low enough to be considered on the small side but large enough to not be considered the smallest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/#findComment-3645435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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