Stonerhino Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 On the actual topic I list it like: 1) Sons of Horus 2) Everyone else Or more exactly After the Sons of Horus claim the number one spot. The "How" you judge the list, makes the list. Most total victories, most compliant, most liberated, ect. They all are valid ways to judge but it always places a bias on the list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3645436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 On topic, I don't think we can really answer this. Basically, because when is a planet added, on conquest? Or when it pays its tithes? In terms of compliant, loyal worlds I think the Ultras and WB are up there, on terms of mass swathes of territory added it would probably be the DA and Sons of Horus/LW. Whether every planet in a region conquered/liberated was made immediately complaint by Horus/Jonson or they left behind some Imperial Army to handle the integration, we don't know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3645442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyld Fireblade Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 The quote from the 2nd ed Space Wolves codex was something along the lines of "Never a large Legion". Then in Scars we have Bjorn addressing the reasons as to why the Wolves are on the small side before purging Prospero. Many things things from 2nd ed have been retconned so I prefer to stick to newer material were possible. The SW 5th ed codex never suggests that the wolves were a smaller legion. Since the BL books do not always coordinate their facts well we will probably just have to wait for FW to give us the clear answer. My guess was simply an attempt to be generous to the TS while not making the SW ridiculous. On the actual topic I list it like: 1) Sons of Horus 2) Everyone else Or more exactly After the Sons of Horus claim the number one spot. The "How" you judge the list, makes the list. Most total victories, most compliant, most liberated, ect. They all are valid ways to judge but it always places a bias on the list. The criteria seems to be total number of worlds claimed. This favors the Sons of Horus and the Dark Angels. (They as well as the Ultramarines and Word Bearers also had the advantage of numbers.) There are two other criteria that I find to be more important. The first is how well a world is brought into compliance. Legions like the Ultras, Blood Angels, and Fists clearly rank higher on that than the Night Lords, Wolves, or World Eaters for example. The second is the quality of their victories (how impressive they are). Personally I think that the fluff in the FW books for some average sized legions (Iron Hands and Emperor's Children) and smaller legions (Salamanders and Death Guard) to be more impressive than the tales of the Sons of Horus or the Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3645467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 You still want ignore it when it is backed up by one of the newest sources on the subject??? That seems silly, really. All Legions had taken casualties during the Great Crusade, but some assignments had been bloodier than others. The Wolves numbers had never been among the highest, a feature exacerbated by their aggressive drive to limit recruitment to Fenris, and their constant deployment – usually self-appointed – to some of the most arduous warzones of the campaign. This drive to disreguard older fluff that is still in line with newer fluff. Purely for the fact that it is old. Really is ridiculous becuase it is an arbitrary decision. You can do what ever you want with "Your 40k". However when you enter into a discusion such as this. "Your 40K" doesn't matter because we have to look at 40K as a whole. Rather 30K in this case. Instead ask yourself if there is any way to reconcile the old fluff with the new. If there is then the old fluff is still valid and you have to weigh the sources. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3645484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros13 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I tend to go with "The Ultramarines (followed by the Word Bearers once the Word Bearers decided to try and compete on that front) bought the most worlds to compliance, the Sons of Horus (followed by the Dark Angels and Space Wolves) won the most military victories." Which of these you consider most impressive is a matter of personal taste; on the one hand, the Ultramarines probably had some relatively easy compliances in the Five Hundred Worlds, who'd be reasonably happy with joining the Imperium but on the other hand, negotiating a peaceful compliance is more desirable than a forceful conquest. Hell, there may have been a degree to which the Dark Angels and Wolves racked up a high number of military victories precisely because neither Russ nor Jonson were particularly diplomatic or willing to flatter self-important governments. If most of your compliances involve military force, you'll naturally get a good score on "military victories". Not that this would be the only factor, otherwise Angron would have been the undisputed king of military victories. It should also be noted that if one Legion is sent to pacify the Stick-wielding Soft-bellied Weaklings of the Cakewalk Nebula and another is sent to pacify the Mean Hard Bastards of the Spiked Iron Starcluster, it doesn't necessarily reflect badly on the second Legion if they accumulate victories and compliances slower than their compatriots. I think the Iron Warriors especially get ill-served in such league-table type rankings. They achieved relatively few victories and compliances because both the Emperor and the Warmaster sent them into the hardest, meanest, most blood-soaked war-of-attrition type campaigns because the Iron Warriors were good at that. If you just take a total of number-of-victories or number-of-compliant worlds as your barometer, you will massively underestimate the Iron Warriors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3645494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 There are also instances where multiple Legions fought on the same world. In such cases it is not entirely clear who gets to claim the victory or to have liberated the world. The Index Astartes article of the Iron Warriors speaks of instances where even though Perturabo was part of a campaign, the brothers got all the glory and he was only briefly mentioned as "a friend who helped". The Index Astartes article of the Raven Guard mentions how Horus had achieved some of his successful victories on the basis of the Raven Guard's preliminary actions, and that Coray eventually had removed his Legion from Horus' command since he could no longer stand his attitude. The Index Astartes of the Luna Wolves explains that Horus would often send two Legions with similar specialisations (IF and IW, BA and NL) on the same campaign, so they would try harder to outdo each other. It also describes that the Luna Wolves were campaigning for a while with the Iron Warriors and the Ultramarines, leaving the two Legions behind to mop up the last pockets of resistances while they themselves pressed on ahead to the next worlds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3645508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Luna Wolves are commonly touted as #1 followed by Ultramarines and Dark Angels A common mistake. Though understandably so, since the 3rd Edition Index Astartes article of the Luna Wolves did claim that they liberated the most worlds out of all the Legions. However, both the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, as well as the 6th Edition Rulebook (p. 187) state that it was the Ultramarines who liberated the most worlds. The 2nd Edition Codex had even explained why that was the case. Setting up secure trade and supply routes allowed the Ultramarines to progress faster than any other Legion. And then they started to grow in strength, which would probably have increased their rate of progress even further. Plus, the Index Astartes article of the Luna Wolves itself called their success into question, describing how the Luna Wolves often left the cleaning up to other Legions, and their successes were sometimes based on the efforts of other Legions they had worked in concert with. (Though that might have been described in the Index Astartes of the Raven Guard). So what we know about the Progress rates (or just shere amount of liberated worlds) of the Legions and a possible ranking would be this: 1. Ultramarines 2. Luna Wolves ...Near bottoom: Alpha Legion 18. Word Bearers I don't think there ever were descriptions for the other Legions, though the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and the Imperial Fists probably share the rest of the top 5 spots. I call that into question. 1 ) The ultramarine codices are written with a bias while index astartes is not. 2 ) Excommunicatae traitoris are expunged from imperial records and thus any loyalist information could not take traitor legion accomplishments into account even if they wanted. 3 ) Obviously setting up supply routes takes more time than conquering and moving on 4 ) Legions I, II, IV and V are described in HH3 to have liberated way more planets in the early crusade than any later legions like wolves or IF. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3645538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 On topic, it states in Horus Rising that Dorn and the IF had a tally of victories second only to Horus and his Legion. Which then begs the question, do victories equate to territory? In the case of some Legions I'd say no because it's more than possible that in their "victory" a world is scorched clear of anything and everything, including the ability to support human life. On the flipside, it's more than within the realms of possibility that Gulliman brought more territory into the Imperium due to his political skills, not just the might of a quarter of a million men and armour at his beck and call. Then there is the timeline considerations. Back in the earliest days it's likely some of the more formidable Legions would tally victories quicker but once the Primarchs started appearing then it stands to reason that the Legions reunited earliest would rack up the most wins. In Horus' case especially but we know little in the order they were found save Horus was first and Alpharius last (and that Dorn, Fulgrim, Ferrus and Lorgar came before Curze, Prince of Crows). In the last 50 years of the GC it's likely the Word Bearers have accumulated the most in that span due to their aggressive approach to conquering worlds containing pure strain humanity for their preparations for the HH. Like most things HH only a few tantalizing hints whilst the rest is coloured by bias or obscuring of the facts Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3645544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I call that into question. 1 ) The ultramarine codices are written with a bias while index astartes is not. That's why the Iron Warriors article says the Iron Warriors dominated at the Iron Cage while the Imperial Fists article says the Imperial Fists dominated. Plus, the 6th Edition Rulebook states that the Ultramarines liberated the most worlds as well. 2 ) Excommunicatae traitoris are expunged from imperial records and thus any loyalist information could not take traitor legion accomplishments into account even if they wanted. Codices often include information that is not known historical information. E.g. The Dark Angels Codices often state that only the Emperor knows that Jonson is still hidden deep inside the Rock. You cannot claim that a Codex only ever includes a factions limited point of view. 3 ) Obviously setting up supply routes takes more time than conquering and moving on Having to wait for supplies later on also takes more time. The implication is that the Ultramarines had much fewer down time than the other Legions since they rarely had to wait to meet up with supplies or reinforcements (supply lines) and rarely had to double back to defend a previously liberated world from an alien invasion (constructed defenses) or rebellion (stable governments). The Index Astartes article of the Luna Wolves in turn explains that since they would often just crush a world's resistance and then move on, further rebellion would often flare up. Having to move back to quell the resistance on a world again would be a perfect example for another victory notch without a further world being added to the Imperium. 4 ) Legions I, II, IV and V are described in HH3 to have liberated way more planets in the early crusade than any later legions like wolves or IF. I don't know what the HH3 book says, (I am curious what it says about the II Legion though) but the Codex Ultramarines explained that immediately after having been given command over the Legion, Guilliman was able to progress at a faster rate than the other Legions. And then his Legion started to grow, due to efficient recruitment and lowes casualties. This would allow to make up for a slow start of the early, Primarch-less XIII Legion to eventually eclipse all the others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3645601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterofMankind Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Everything I've heard is that the Wolves and Sons were equal strength, and that the numbers presented in A Thousand Sons were going to be retconned into being larger since the Salamanders are directly stated to be the smallest Legion and numbering quite a bit more than ten thousand. At least 40,000 IIRC."These figures would tally with commonly held estimates of a total active strength for the Salamanders Legion at the end of the Great Crusade of approximately 89,000 Legiones Astartes, placing them as among the smallest overall of the Legions in manpower." p 121, Massacre Among the smallest, not the smallest. Though 40,000 would still be acceptable, that said. And I guess, now that I am reading that quote again, that there actually has been an additional retcon of Legion numbers. Before, 10k was the average size. Then, 100k was. Now, 100k is considered small, with a Legion that is nearly that considered to be among the smallest. Edit: Though interestingly, they kept the original figure of total Salamander survivors multiplied by a factor of ten (7k rather than 700), so it isn't as much a retcon and more a shift of averages. Well that makes a mess out of Salamanders continuity. I though the reason they didn't have a second founding succesor was because they were too few Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3645628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros13 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 On topic, it states in Horus Rising that Dorn and the IF had a tally of victories second only to Horus and his Legion. Which then begs the question, do victories equate to territory? In the case of some Legions I'd say no because it's more than possible that in their "victory" a world is scorched clear of anything and everything, including the ability to support human life. On the flipside, it's more than within the realms of possibility that Gulliman brought more territory into the Imperium due to his political skills, not just the might of a quarter of a million men and armour at his beck and call. Then there is the timeline considerations. Back in the earliest days it's likely some of the more formidable Legions would tally victories quicker but once the Primarchs started appearing then it stands to reason that the Legions reunited earliest would rack up the most wins. In Horus' case especially but we know little in the order they were found save Horus was first and Alpharius last (and that Dorn, Fulgrim, Ferrus and Lorgar came before Curze, Prince of Crows). In the last 50 years of the GC it's likely the Word Bearers have accumulated the most in that span due to their aggressive approach to conquering worlds containing pure strain humanity for their preparations for the HH. Like most things HH only a few tantalizing hints whilst the rest is coloured by bias or obscuring of the facts In Unremembered Empire, we learn that Gulliman was found 8th. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3645681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 @legatus: 1) fair point, yet this still is a (intended) special case of bias vs. bias on the iron cage while the rest of the IA is written from an omniscient persective. could you quote the 6th ed. rulebook line? (exept when it's from a UM/SM fluff section, in which case I'd again object because of bias) 2) Is there an instance of such information to be found in the ultramarine codices? But even then, I think we can agree that codex information should be considered biased where it is not presented as objective fact, which the territory bit isn't. Limitied information is a propable reason for that mistake. 3) by the time they were renamed sons of horus, they could employ other legions known to do that, like III or IV. IIRC there is only one known instance of them coming back (istvaan V). 4) fair point. Still horus was found first and thus had the headstart (without primarch, Iron warriors were one of the fastest, yet dispersed in the process). I don't think it says anything on the II (ignore that, my fault). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3645723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoros Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Except this isn't an issue of "the Ultramarines were the best", a subjective statement that's the sort of thing affected by bias in Codices, etc. It's an objective statement: "the Ultramarines liberated the most words". Codices do tend to have a pro-faction slant, but I'm not sure that they ever outright lie to make their chosen faction look better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3645749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 1) fair point, yet this still is a (intended) special case of bias vs. bias on the iron cage while the rest of the IA is written from an omniscient persective. could you quote the 6th ed. rulebook line? (exept when it's from a UM/SM fluff section, in which case I'd again object because of bias) I would not be so sure about that. The Alpha Legion Index Astartes claims that the Codex doctrines were too rigid and "anathema" to Alpharius' preference for flexibility and lower rank initiative. Yet the Imperial Fists Index Astartes explains how the Imperial Fists became a great deal more flexible after adopting the Codex Astartes, and that one of its tenets is to encourage lower officiers to act on initiative. (In fact, several sources point out how the Codex doctrines, while allowing for fewer specialised unit choices, is the most flexible and adaptable doctrine used by loyal Chapters.) That does seem to display a heavy bias towards the Alpha Legion's impression of affairs. And the article outright warns that much of its content is not verified. The traitor Index Astartes articles also seem to paint most of the traitor Primarchs as wronged or tragically misled. I really don't think you can take the Index Astartes articles as much more credible than a Codex. Sure, a Codex will attempt to make the faction look cool. But to think it would give false information? And of course specific information such as a Legion's individual actions during the Crusade are from the Space Marine section of the Rulebook (p. 187). But you wouldn't expect the Rulebook to say that the Ultramarines liberated the most worlds in the Space Marines section and then say that the Luna Wolves liberated the most worlds in the Chaos section, would you? 2) Is there an instance of such information to be found in the ultramarine codices? But even then, I think we can agree that codex information should be considered biased where it is not presented as objective fact, which the territory bit isn't. Limitied information is a propable reason for that mistake. There are not many hidden secrets in the Ultramarines' background. But there are enough descriptions of how "many believe that Guilliman's wounds are healing, yet others point out that this would be impossible" that it appears at least to be somewhat evenhanded. It also mentions the Horus Heresy, so if it was based on an Imperial point of view, then it would not be the common man, educational account of their history, but the high clearance, inquisition and such account. Such accounts are perhaps less likely to be exaggerated. 3) by the time they were renamed sons of horus, they could employ other legions known to do that, like III or IV. IIRC there is only one known instance of them coming back (istvaan V). We will probably never be given detailed information on who fought where. But the supply lines are given as the reason for the Ultramarines' faster progress. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3645790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I really don't think you can take the Index Astartes articles as much more credible than a Codex. Sure, a Codex will attempt to make the faction look cool. But to think it would give false information? more credible nonetheless, if only because of consistency issues becoming much more visible in a series this short and comparable. The narrative of the IA would have to explain direct contradictions, while two codices won't. With a good reason (like the average ultramarine's knowledge of the heresy being biased enough), I find it believable that the accomplishments of the traitor legions would be attributed elsewhere. Room for doubt remains (and is also propably intended to encourage competition), thus I settle on: undecided. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3646136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 more credible nonetheless, if only because of consistency issues becoming much more visible in a series this short and comparable. Although it did not help consistency that the Index Astartes articles were written by a variety of authors, whose grasp of the lore varied wildly. Some articles are... "not as good" as others. *coughalphalegion* The Codices provide the core of a faction's background. The Index Astartes articles are supplementary. Usually "supplementary" can mean "more" or "more detailed". But if it contradicts the core of the background, it can also be "incorrect". The Alpha Legion Index Astartes article is the main example of an article that seems to have lacked research. Where the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines had spoken of a long existing feud between the Alpha Legion and the Imperial Fists, the Alpha Legion Index Astartes article completely omits that and instead puts up the Ultramarines as the "antagonist" Legion that drives the Alpha Legion into the arms of Chaos. As mentioned before, it also characterizes the Ultramarines doctrines as rigid and restrictive, which is disputed in many sources (the last one being the 1st FW HH book, where the Emperor's Children are said to have a more diverse selection of tactical approaches than all the other Legions other than perhaps the Ultramarines). It does not stop there. The article also explains that the Ultramarines would surely have difficulty to operate in rough mountain terrain on Eskrador, glancing over the fact that Guilliman's very first military campaign took place in just such terrain (the Illyrium mountain region on Macragge) and that the Ultramarines' very own fortress monastery is situated in the uninhabitable mountain regions of Macragge. The article also casually points out that both Legions (AL and UM) "of course" have a very similar amount of Thunderhawks, and that thus none could achieve aerial superiority, even though that might come as a bit of a surprise to someone who wasn't previously aware that the Alpha Legion was apparently supposed to have the same ressources as the 25k Ultramarines Legion. Curiously enough, while I checked the articles again, it turns out that the author of the Alpha Legion article has only written two of the Index Astartes articles. The other one being the Luna Wolves article. If that author wasn't aware of the general characteristics of the Codex doctrines or the history and geography of Macragge, and had perhaps missed the small paragraph in the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos about the Imperial Fists being the nemesis of the Alpha Legion, then it is not surprising that he might also have missed a line from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines that had explained that the Ultramarines had liberated the most worlds. If the 5th Edition "Ward Codex" repeating that is not an acceptable correction to the Index Astartes article, then at the very least the 6th Edition Rulebook should have settled the matter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3646201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Laurie over at TFE outright states the older IA background is superseded by the novels and FW books. Make of that what you will. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3646209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 the author of the Alpha Legion article has only written two of the Index Astartes articles. The other one being the Luna Wolves article. If that author wasn't aware of the general characteristics of the Codex doctrines or the history and geography of Macragge, and had perhaps missed the small paragraph in the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos about the Imperial Fists being the nemesis of the Alpha Legion, then it is not surprising that he might also have missed a line from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines that had explained that the Ultramarines had liberated the most worlds. Now that is an interesting bit of information! Plausible, although it is not necessary to assume faults in one work because of one in the other. The retcon from IF to UM makes sense in the light of the IW/IF-feud and was very propably deliberate, even if the execution is found wanting. Then again, calling out your opponent on their favored terrain to give them a false sense of security, but attacking from unexpected vectors really does sound like an AL tactic to me. After all, however adaptive the UM legion tactics may be, one can always count on the pride of the one that invented them. It still doesn't make sense to me how the building of elaborate support lines would have made the guy that was found 8th and whose legion lagged behind already overturn the first primarch and warmaster that specialized in HQ elimination and left the paperwork to his subordinates. If anything, the UM should have been as slow to gain territory as the early WB. It simply takes more time, not less, and the expedition fleets were pretty much self-sufficient thanks to the Admech. Analogy: In all their history of nearly 1000 years, the romans never conquered as much as Alexander the great in one lifetime. I keep my doubts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3646434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Guilliman only personally made sure that the world was properly defended. For the industry to be created and trate and supply routes to be established he left behind advisors. "Whenever Roboute Guilliman freed a world from the tyranny of Orks, Chaos or other aliens, his first priority was to set up a self-supporting defence system. Once a world was safe he could move on, leaving behind enough advisers to ensure that industry would be created, trading routes set up with the Imperium, and government directed towards the prosperity of the people. In this way the Ultramarines could conquer worlds faster than any other Space Marine Legion." (2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 12) It is also worth mentioning that the Ultramarines tried to keep collateral damage to a minimum, which certainly aided in that procedure. As I eventuelly learned, their procedures are directly inspired by the Roman Legions: "When invading enemy territories, the Roman army would often construct roads as they went, to allow swift reinforcement and resupply, as well as a path for easy retreat if necessary. Roman road-making skills are such that some Roman roads survive to this day." (Wikipedia article on roman military engineering) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3646538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 yes, this is exactly what doesn't make sense that particular one from 2nd ed. C:UM seems to be a primary example of the doubts I expressed earlier. "chaos" isn't known to the legions before horuses fall, so it seems to apply mainly to post-heresy expeditions (the scouring), where "space marine legion" would surely mean only the loyalist side. thus it doesn't say anything about them being a ) faster or b ) having conquered more worlds alltogether than any of the chaos legions. maybe the exact wording of the other quotes you mentioned could help? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3646629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 I believe Sons of Horus had conquered the most planets of all the Legions. Death Guard had a high number, they didn't call Mortarion 'The Traveler' for nothing. However, most of their campaigns were purgation and xenocide. Emperor's Children were pretty high up there too, if I recall correctly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3646649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 that particular one from 2nd ed. C:UM seems to be a primary example of the doubts I expressed earlier. "chaos" isn't known to the legions before horuses fall, so it seems to apply mainly to post-heresy expeditions (the scouring), where "space marine legion" would surely mean only the loyalist side. thus it doesn't say anything about them being a ) faster or b ) having conquered more worlds alltogether than any of the chaos legions. In earlier editions, Chaos was already known, and was the primary threat the Great Crusade set out to combat. (See an excerpt of early descriptions of the Great Crusade in the thread Great Crusade - why the rush?) The quote from the 2nd Edition Codex specifically refers to immediately after Guilliman was first given control over his Legion. Here is a bit more from that page to give more context: "The Ultramarines Legion of Space Marines was assigned to the control of Roboute Guilliman and its forward base relocated to Macragge. The Primarch quickly assimilated the many wonders of the Imperium and set about his new role with skill and enthusiasm. His chief talents, as ever, lay in war, and he soon led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south. He succeeded in liberating more worlds during the Great Crusade than any other Primarch, and the worlds he brought within the Imperium were to benefit from his organisational skills and passion for efficient government. Whenever Roboute Guilliman freed a world from the tyranny of Orks, Chaos or other aliens, his first priority was to set up a self-supporting defence systen. Once a world was safe he could move on, leaving behind enough advisers to ensure that industry would be created, trading routes set up with the Imperium, and government directed towards the prosperity of the people. In this way the Ultramarines could conquer worlds faster than any other Space Marine Legion. Meanwhile, the fortress of the Ultramarines grew on Macragge. Some Ultramarines remained behind to supervise the work, which progressed rapidly thanks to the ready trading network and advanced industries of the planet. Within a year a training base was established, and recruiting began on the planet Macragge and surrounding worlds. It was not long before the Ultramarines Legion received its first influx of warriors born and bred on Macragge. Thanks to their usual thoroughness of organisation, the Ultramarines were able to receive constant recruits throughout the Great Crusade. Because of its strong recruitment base and Roboute Guilliman's tactical expertise the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits than any other Legion and suffering fewer casualties." (2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 12) That text is repeated almost verbatim in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines on page 13, including the line about liberating more worlds than any other Primarch (which at the time some assumed was made up by Matt Ward), though unfortunately omitting the line about how it was the described procedures that allowed the Ultramarines to progress faster than other Legions. The quote from the 6th Edition Rulebook (p. 187) is very brief, just quickly presenting the Ultramarines Chapter, among five other select Chapters (SW, BA, IF, DA, GK): "The Ultramarines are an exemplary Chapter - arguably the purest, noblest and most honoured of their legendary kind. From the fledgling days of the Imperium, when they liberated more planets during the Great Crusade than any other Legion, to more recently, when they alone held the foe at bay at the beginning of the Tyrannic Wars, the Ultramarines have covered themselves in glory. It was the Ultramarines' Primarch, Roboute Guilliman, who established the Codex Astartes, the tome that laid the foundation for the Space Marine Chapters. Due to their storied success and stable gene-seed, they have served as progenitor for more successor Chapters than any other." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3646674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Death Guard had a high number, they didn't call Mortarion 'The Traveler' for nothing. However, most of their campaigns were purgation and xenocide. Er, they didn't? That is, First Captain Calas Typhon was given the "Traveler" moniker, and I believe that happened after he was altered by Nurgle and took the name Typhus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3646676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Er, they did. One of Mortarion's titles was 'The Traveller'. Check out his entry in Betrayal. The Pale King, The Master of the Death Guard, The Traveller, Dread Liberator of Barbarus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3646716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 It could also be supported by the comment in scars Where Mortarion basically says he and the Khan were always on the fringes of the crusade, always the vanguard, always the ones to venture the furthest Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289097-rank-the-legions-by-territory-added-during-the-great-crusade/page/2/#findComment-3646759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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