Gift of Mutation

[Noctus Cornix]

I did say people who 'don't' use the power of the Gods, more of a reference to you mentioning unaligned armies. The idea of Chaos Space Marines fighting without any use of the Dark Powers, to me, is crippling in both a sense of fluff and game terms. If you're going to be a proud arrogant bastard of a Chaos Space Marine and not accept the fact that your own 'allies' are the Dark Gods, you're going to likely die out very fast. I've never given to the 'doesn't use chaos' bull that was thrown at several legions back in the day. It never made any sense and is completely counter-intuitive. You don't have to worship the Gods. Hell, you don't even have to like them, but you're not getting anywhere in life without them except an early grave. Like I said, I find it to be narrow and skewed, but its purely my opinion on the subject.

 

I wasn't saying that you shouldn't play a mono Nurgle army, far from it. Mono God Legions aren't the greatest in the world (God knows the TS sadly aren't) but  Plague Marines are great, doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be good at duels. Plague Marines aren't meant to really win challenges, that's more for Khorne and Slaanesh. You don't have to trade in anything, I never said you should. Every army has to have their disadvantages so way, though I don't see how dishing out a few extra points for a power axe on a Plague Champion couldn't help your odds. You're already at I3 anyway.

 

I could also say something about 'Legions', but that's irrelevant to the subject so I'll be a good and not talk about it. But I completely agree that Mono-God armies should be good and viable, because they have the dedication and affection of their God, it has nothing to do with whether they come from the Death Guard or the Purge.

 

So I take it you consider those who play single chapter, craftworld or hivefleet armies to be crippling themselves? I'm sorry but it is the Thousand sons fluff and background, the tragedy of their fall and the rubric, the egyptian/mesopotamian elements, that I want to play. Yes I use a unit of noise marines, and again it is the fluff/insainity of their paint scheme that I like, fluffwise they are a squad hired as mercinaries by the Sorcerers, so whilst I do use non Thousand son units, the core of the army it the sons of Magnus.
Yes not everyone wants to play mono legions, but not everyone wants to play space pirates who think capturing a light cruiser is a big achievement either, some like to mix the two ideas,or twist them into their own.
It's like ice cream, everyone likes different flavors, and some can be mixed and others don't go well together that well, it just sucks for us that over half the flavors in the chaos ice cream store got laced with salt and laxatives.
It is the sheer amount of unworthy offering that makes the table unwelcome and a poor choice compared to say a combi bolter.

 

Once again, was referring to nonaligned chaos armies who use no marks or chaos abilities, not mono-god armies that adhere specifically to one. Mono-god armies SHOULD be better.

[Chaeron]

 

So I take it you consider those who play single chapter, craftworld or hivefleet armies to be crippling themselves? I'm sorry but it is the Thousand sons fluff and background, the tragedy of their fall and the rubric, the egyptian/mesopotamian elements, that I want to play. Yes I use a unit of noise marines, and again it is the fluff/insainity of their paint scheme that I like, fluffwise they are a squad hired as mercinaries by the Sorcerers, so whilst I do use non Thousand son units, the core of the army it the sons of Magnus.

Yes not everyone wants to play mono legions, but not everyone wants to play space pirates who think capturing a light cruiser is a big achievement either, some like to mix the two ideas,or twist them into their own.

It's like ice cream, everyone likes different flavors, and some can be mixed and others don't go well together that well, it just sucks for us that over half the flavors in the chaos ice cream store got laced with salt and laxatives.

It is the sheer amount of unworthy offering that makes the table unwelcome and a poor choice compared to say a combi bolter.

 

Once again, was referring to nonaligned chaos armies who use no marks or chaos abilities, not mono-god armies that adhere specifically to one. Mono-god armies SHOULD be better.

 

Crux of the problem is, they're not. 

[totgeboren]

I'm going to be honest and admit I have no pity for anyone who plays a Chaos army that does not use the gifts of the Gods. Using the antiquated guidelines from an ancient retconned codex over a decade old is simply crippling yourself and your experience. I'd also add its a rather narrow and skewed perception of the fluff, but that's just my opinion.

A strange sentiment to say the least. Do you tell a Raven Guard player the same when they choose to playing using Raven Guard tactics instead of Iron Hands tactics?

 

The background written for the legions (traitor and loyalist alike) over the last 20 years plays a big part in why people like them. I don't think the HH stuff from FW would have been nearly as popular if it wasn't for the background for example.

[King Jackal]

 

I'm going to be honest and admit I have no pity for anyone who plays a Chaos army that does not use the gifts of the Gods. Using the antiquated guidelines from an ancient retconned codex over a decade old is simply crippling yourself and your experience. I'd also add its a rather narrow and skewed perception of the fluff, but that's just my opinion.

A strange sentiment to say the least. Do you tell a Raven Guard player the same when they choose to playing using Raven Guard tactics instead of Iron Hands tactics?

 

The background written for the legions (traitor and loyalist alike) over the last 20 years plays a big part in why people like them. I don't think the HH stuff from FW would have been nearly as popular if it wasn't for the background for example.

I read the sentiment to mean, 'adapt or die.' I don't think that's strange at all

[Chaeron]

 

 

I'm going to be honest and admit I have no pity for anyone who plays a Chaos army that does not use the gifts of the Gods. Using the antiquated guidelines from an ancient retconned codex over a decade old is simply crippling yourself and your experience. I'd also add its a rather narrow and skewed perception of the fluff, but that's just my opinion.

A strange sentiment to say the least. Do you tell a Raven Guard player the same when they choose to playing using Raven Guard tactics instead of Iron Hands tactics?

 

The background written for the legions (traitor and loyalist alike) over the last 20 years plays a big part in why people like them. I don't think the HH stuff from FW would have been nearly as popular if it wasn't for the background for example.

I read the sentiment to mean, 'adapt or die.' I don't think that's strange at all

 

Use a Loyalist Codex?

[RolandTHTG]

 

Mark of Slaanesh and a power sword or lightning claw? Then you can kill Marine sergeants fairly easily.

 

Good yes, but as aforementioned - doesn't really help myself who plays Death Guard, or anyone else who plays a Legion unaligned/undivided.

I'll be honest, my Plague Marine Champions (either axe or Lightning claw) are as successful in challenges as my Noise Marine Champs. While they suffer a little against enemy HQs (who you aren't going to beat anyways) Enemy Sgts just don't have enough attacks to usually get past the T5 and FNP before my guys strike. Then my plague claws bury themselves in the loyalist guts and my guys are rewarded by the True Powers. 

[King Jackal]

I'm going to be honest and admit I have no pity for anyone who plays a Chaos army that does not use the gifts of the Gods. Using the antiquated guidelines from an ancient retconned codex over a decade old is simply crippling yourself and your experience. I'd also add its a rather narrow and skewed perception of the fluff, but that's just my opinion.

A strange sentiment to say the least. Do you tell a Raven Guard player the same when they choose to playing using Raven Guard tactics instead of Iron Hands tactics?

The background written for the legions (traitor and loyalist alike) over the last 20 years plays a big part in why people like them. I don't think the HH stuff from FW would have been nearly as popular if it wasn't for the background for example.

I read the sentiment to mean, 'adapt or die.' I don't think that's strange at all

Use a Loyalist Codex?

Never !

I don't have a huge problem with the shape 'we' are in though and I haven't fielded a drake for months

[incinerator950]

 

I'm going to be honest and admit I have no pity for anyone who plays a Chaos army that does not use the gifts of the Gods. Using the antiquated guidelines from an ancient retconned codex over a decade old is simply crippling yourself and your experience. I'd also add its a rather narrow and skewed perception of the fluff, but that's just my opinion.

A strange sentiment to say the least. Do you tell a Raven Guard player the same when they choose to playing using Raven Guard tactics instead of Iron Hands tactics?

 

The background written for the legions (traitor and loyalist alike) over the last 20 years plays a big part in why people like them. I don't think the HH stuff from FW would have been nearly as popular if it wasn't for the background for example.

 

Apparently choices and flavor are antiquated. 

[Chaeron]

I'm going to be honest and admit I have no pity for anyone who plays a Chaos army that does not use the gifts of the Gods. Using the antiquated guidelines from an ancient retconned codex over a decade old is simply crippling yourself and your experience. I'd also add its a rather narrow and skewed perception of the fluff, but that's just my opinion.

A strange sentiment to say the least. Do you tell a Raven Guard player the same when they choose to playing using Raven Guard tactics instead of Iron Hands tactics?

The background written for the legions (traitor and loyalist alike) over the last 20 years plays a big part in why people like them. I don't think the HH stuff from FW would have been nearly as popular if it wasn't for the background for example.

I read the sentiment to mean, 'adapt or die.' I don't think that's strange at all

Use a Loyalist Codex?

Never !

I don't have a huge problem with the shape 'we' are in though and I haven't fielded a drake for months

The facetious part of my wants to ask whether you've actually played in months then :lol:

Fair enough - I can't imagine that with the current meta, and would be impressed to hear your list and how you run it.

[King Jackal]

2 words my friend. Daemon Allies

All said and done I play in a meta that supports trying different lists and handicaps selections (via victory point advantage or strategic choices) that are deemed 'power choices' by consensus. I actually highly recommend it.

[the jeske]

But if you take demons , you may as well take them as primary and use csm to what they are realy useful . a sorc , mini cultists and helldrakes.

[King Jackal]

I don't play one list...? Sometimes I play Daemons primary but sometimes I feel like taking Chaos Space Marines. Am I alone in this?

[the jeske]

Oh no, Chaos Space Marines as troops and a Chaos Lord that isn't Mark of Nurgle!

Sorry don't know how to comment on this . Are you claiming that non mon lords are better somehow from mon lords and that csm are somehow viable troop choices?

Sorry, had to poke at you for it. Yeah, I almost always upgrade my Troop

choices (save cultists of course) as I generally have a focus on

keeping my troops flexible and useful at all times. I'm not a fan of

shoving the cheapest worthless squads into my troop slot just so I can

tool out on as many not troops as possible. That's simply not my style

and I follow the belief that my troops are the core of my army and it

will stay that way. Its obviously not the absolute most effective thing,

but it works for me a pretty reliably.

Sorry , but I don't see how style somehow makes up for game efficiency , when we are talking about game efficiency. CSM are not an efficient way to run troops, there for something that forces someone to run them is not efficient too and the term good , can't be used to described it.

As for a Chaos Lord? Uhhh yeah, I don't know what to tell you but I almost never take the Mark of Nurgle on them save when I'm using a palanquin Lord for funsies with the Crimson Slaughter dex. Usually my HQ choices is filled with special characters, Unmarked sorcerers with ML 3 Telepathy, Daemon Princes, or wacky deathstar lords to butcher through swathes of Marines and Guard at a time.

How do you butcher through sm , when their HQs are at least on the same level as ours [and better if CS is not used].

Like a lord on a steed of Slaanesh with an outflanking squad of bikers.

That is an extremely fun thing to hurl at a Tau line hunkered behind an

aegis defense line. Or a Lord with a disc of tzeentch and shiverspine

blade. Tried that once, no regrets when I could happily sail across the

board and gut entire heavy weapon teams like they were paper.

So you go out of reservs , eat the quad gun and 3-5 riptides ignoring cover AND then wait for a turn and get shot again once more.

[the jeske]

I don't play one list...? Sometimes I play Daemons primary but sometimes I feel like taking Chaos Space Marines. Am I alone in this?

But demon primary is better , if someone decides to buy the models. Even if someone has a bigger collection of csm models , there is nothing a demon army primary can't do [with csm ally] what a csm primary can do with demons . Vice versa on the other hand is not possible [ally demons can't stack heralds for example].

[Chaeron]

2 words my friend. Daemon Allies

 

I'd simply prefer to play Daemons straight out and use a Screamerstar or something similar. I don't believe that they can adequately cover our shortfall. Put your list against say Taudar or Seerstar and how does it fare?

[King Jackal]

 

I don't play one list...? Sometimes I play Daemons primary but sometimes I feel like taking Chaos Space Marines. Am I alone in this?

But demon primary is better , if someone decides to buy the models. Even if someone has a bigger collection of csm models , there is nothing a demon army primary can't do [with csm ally] what a csm primary can do with demons . Vice versa on the other hand is not possible [ally demons can't stack heralds for example].

Sometimes it's good to just to have fun with a list you want to take no?

 

 

2 words my friend. Daemon Allies

 

I'd simply prefer to play Daemons straight out and use a Screamerstar or something similar. I don't believe that they can adequately cover our shortfall. Put your list against say Taudar or Seerstar and how does it fare?

Screamer star puts me at a 3 VP disadvantage. I much prefer foot slaanesh princes, keeper of secrets and a bunch of beasts (hounds, fiends, spawn) with some nuke squads of horrors and herald support.

[incinerator950]

Jeske is burnt out to the point fun doesn't register with him anymore.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Jeske is burnt out to the point fun doesn't register with him anymore.

 

Nah, it's just a measure of his local meta.  It's all tournaments all the time in Russia, apparently, so he learned the game as a purely min-max-style event.

[incinerator950]

I already knew his meta is all waac.  Still on the off-topic topic of renegade astartes that are not chaos affiliated, you're walking a fine line between 3.5's old Traitor legionaires and just random Soul Drinkers loyalists. 

[Noctus Cornix]

Crux of the problem is, they're not. 

Oh I agree, doesn't change my point though.

 

 

 

A strange sentiment to say the least. Do you tell a Raven Guard player the same when they choose to playing using Raven Guard tactics instead of Iron Hands tactics?

The background written for the legions (traitor and loyalist alike) over the last 20 years plays a big part in why people like them. I don't think the HH stuff from FW would have been nearly as popular if it wasn't for the background for example.

I have no idea where that idea comes from. Loyalist marine codex and Chaos marine codex are two different breeds of beasts. The two have nothing to do with one another and my point concerning nonaligned Chaos Space Marines, who have no rules save for the void of them, has nothing to do with loyalist chapters.

 

Sorry don't know how to comment on this . Are you claiming that non mon lords are better somehow from mon lords and that csm are somehow viable troop choices?

It was just a joke, Jeske, don't worry about it. :P Am I saying that non nurgle lords are better? No, but they're certainly viable. Are csm viable troops? I think so, yes, though obviously not in a tournament environment.

 

Sorry , but I don't see how style somehow makes up for game efficiency , when we are talking about game efficiency. CSM are not an efficient way to run troops, there for something that forces someone to run them is not efficient too and the term good , can't be used to described it.

Simply not being the best doesn't make them not worth taking in any situation, there's no reason for that. If you want a min-max army, fine, that's your prerogative. Two completely different game metas.

 

How do you butcher through sm , when their HQs are at least on the same level as ours [and better if CS is not used].

By not going near their HQ's until its advantageous to do so? :huh: If you're on a bike or a jetbike, its really not that difficult to avoid other units.

 

So you go out of reservs , eat the quad gun and 3-5 riptides ignoring cover AND then wait for a turn and get shot again once more.

Yeah, see I don't deal with people who field 3-5 riptides, thankfully there's no one in my area who does that kind of cheese, and even if there was, I'd simply kindly decline their offer to play. Tournaments don't interest me, no reason why I should have to tune my gaming for their meta.

[Chaeron]

 

Crux of the problem is, they're not. 

Oh I agree, doesn't change my point though.

I struggle to imagine that people who have no constraints would actively not do that though - the majority of players in recent time that I've known have chosen to mark since there was no mark of Undivided, precisely because of the benefits it gave you. I haven't legitimately seen anyone do that, because it'd be like cutting off your nose to spite your face. The problem is people then use MoN or whatever as a crutch, which shouldn't be the case.

[Plague Angel]

How do you butcher through sm , when their HQs are at least on the same level as ours [and better if CS is not used].

By not going near their HQ's until its advantageous to do so? If you're on a bike or a jetbike, its really not that difficult to avoid other units.

It's not even hard to imagine.

Chaos Lord and his unit get assaulted by Chapter Master and his unit. Aspiring Champion challenges, Chapter Master accepts. Lord proceeds to eat all the non-HQ loyalists up. Saying that a Lord can eat up Space Marines doesn't have anything to do with whether loyalist HQs are better in CC.

[Excessus]

How do you butcher through sm , when their HQs are at least on the same level as ours [and better if CS is not used].

By not going near their HQ's until its advantageous to do so? If you're on a bike or a jetbike, its really not that difficult to avoid other units.

It's not even hard to imagine.

Chaos Lord and his unit get assaulted by Chapter Master and his unit. Aspiring Champion challenges, Chapter Master accepts. Lord proceeds to eat all the non-HQ loyalists up. Saying that a Lord can eat up Space Marines doesn't have anything to do with whether loyalist HQs are better in CC.

You do know that the opposite sergeant can accept as well, right? Sure our lord will eat up the opposing squad, but the chapter master will do the same for our unit as well...

[Plague Angel]

Sure. There are any number of possibilities. Maybe the Chapter Champion challenged instead of the CM. Maybe you deployed your HQ on the edge and there isn't an enemy HQ in the marine unit at all.

 

On the table there's any number of situations that could come up. The default assumption that the Lord and CM are locked in a challenge is likely, but it obviously wasn't the situation being described to begin with.

[the jeske]

Jeske is burnt out to the point fun doesn't register with him anymore.

Nah, it's just a measure of his local meta. It's all tournaments all the time in Russia, apparently, so he learned the game as a purely min-max-style event.

Not a question of meta. The demon+csm lists , work the same. If both versions work the same , but one is better , then to use the weaker one makes no sense gameswise. If a demon main +csm army worked drasticly different from a csm+demons one and one was weaker [let say csm can do a wing type army . terminators suck in 6th. but if someone wants to play chaos terminators playing csm main should make more sense] it could be an option .

Chaos Lord and his unit get assaulted by Chapter Master and his unit.

Aspiring Champion challenges, Chapter Master accepts. Lord proceeds to

eat all the non-HQ loyalists up. Saying that a Lord can eat up Space

Marines doesn't have anything to do with whether loyalist HQs are better

in CC.

You know very well that the sgt throws the challange .

Sure. There are any number of possibilities. Maybe the Chapter Champion

challenged instead of the CM. Maybe you deployed your HQ on the edge

and there isn't an enemy HQ in the marine unit at all.

Scout gives greater mobility to the marine player ,his chance to be where he wants will always be higher then a csm player with his bikes.

Yeah, see I don't deal with people who field 3-5 riptides, thankfully

there's no one in my area who does that kind of cheese, and even if

there was, I'd simply kindly decline their offer to play. Tournaments

don't interest me, no reason why I should have to tune my gaming for

their meta.

Wait so you can spam helldrakes and chaos deathstars , and your opponents that play tau aren't using riptides . what kind of builds are they using SMS broadside spam with plasma suits?

It was just a joke, Jeske, don't worry about it.

Am I saying that non nurgle lords are better? No, but they're certainly

viable. Are csm viable troops? I think so, yes, though obviously not in

a tournament environment.

Wasn't talking about tournament. Why do people assume I do. Taking csm primary to tournaments is not optimal. If we took the tournament viable only=good , then csm would be unplayable aside of ally and skew lists in small events.

Simply not being the best doesn't make them not worth taking in any

situation, there's no reason for that. If you want a min-max army, fine,

that's your prerogative. Two completely different game metas.

But it has nothing to do with being the best . They are not just worse , they are bad . high cost for low return , while doing the same stuff as cultists in the end . They can't melee , they can't shot well enough to make a gunline or win games through shoting , they can't counter the stuff that has to be countered this edition and they can't stand up units commonly fielded in 6th ed. That is not just being "not the best".