Gift of Mutation

[Noctus Cornix]

Yeah, see I don't deal with people who field 3-5 riptides, thankfully

there's no one in my area who does that kind of cheese, and even if

there was, I'd simply kindly decline their offer to play. Tournaments

don't interest me, no reason why I should have to tune my gaming for

their meta.

Wait so you can spam helldrakes and chaos deathstars , and your opponents that play tau aren't using riptides . what kind of builds are they using SMS broadside spam with plasma suits?

I could if I wanted to, yeah, but I don't. I've never fielded more than 1 heldrake in any single game and even then I almost never use it. We have two Tau players, only one of them actually uses a Riptide and he only uses one. We also have a Mono Nurgle Player, and Thousand Sons player, a Templar, an Ork, a Space Wolf, two Eldar, and Guard player. Most of the guys change their builds around each game. No one does much min maxing.

It was just a joke, Jeske, don't worry about it.

Am I saying that non nurgle lords are better? No, but they're certainly

viable. Are csm viable troops? I think so, yes, though obviously not in

a tournament environment.

Wasn't talking about tournament. Why do people assume I do. Taking csm primary to tournaments is not optimal. If we took the tournament viable only=good , then csm would be unplayable aside of ally and skew lists in small events.

Probably because you usually act with this mindset of 'everything has to be optimal and super efficient, anything that's less than that is worthless'.

Simply not being the best doesn't make them not worth taking in any

situation, there's no reason for that. If you want a min-max army, fine,

that's your prerogative. Two completely different game metas.

But it has nothing to do with being the best . They are not just worse , they are bad . high cost for low return , while doing the same stuff as cultists in the end . They can't melee , they can't shot well enough to make a gunline or win games through shoting , they can't counter the stuff that has to be countered this edition and they can't stand up units commonly fielded in 6th ed. That is not just being "not the best".

Except they aren't... CSM can do close combat just fine. They can have 2 attacks standard and 3 on the charge and depending on what which mark you give them, they have the same combat abilities as Vanguard veterans at base without the power weapons. They're obviously not made to be a gunline, they're supposed to be used for mid to close ranged combat They almost never really fail me in standard games.

[Plague Angel]

 

 

Chaos Lord and his unit get assaulted by Chapter Master and his unit.

Aspiring Champion challenges, Chapter Master accepts. Lord proceeds to

eat all the non-HQ loyalists up. Saying that a Lord can eat up Space

Marines doesn't have anything to do with whether loyalist HQs are better

in CC.

You know very well that the sgt throws the challange .

Sure. There are any number of possibilities. Maybe the Chapter Champion

challenged instead of the CM. Maybe you deployed your HQ on the edge

and there isn't an enemy HQ in the marine unit at all.

Scout gives greater mobility to the marine player ,his chance to be where he wants will always be higher then a csm player with his bikes.

See, you're still bringing in assumptions I'm not. Maybe the Marine player is using Fists or Salamanders tactics and doesn't have Scout on his HQ. Maybe the Chaos Lord has a jump pack and Deep Struck. Who knows. I'm literally just making up hypotheticals. If you're really telling me that out of every possible Marine list against every possible CSM list, you can't imagine a single situation in which a Chaos Lord gets to kill a Tactical Marine? Then I give up.

[Kythnos]

 

Except they aren't... CSM can do close combat just fine. They can have 2 attacks standard and 3 on the charge and depending on what which mark you give them, they have the same combat abilities as Vanguard veterans at base without the power weapons. They're obviously not made to be a gunline, they're supposed to be used for mid to close ranged combat They almost never really fail me in standard games.

 

 

Now this is going a bit off-topic (as if we weren't already), but I'm genuinely interested in your experiences with the normal troop CSM units. Maybe I still rate them too high from the previous codex, were they had everything included already and could reroll morale checks for a meagre 10 points, so they were quite a bit cheaper than if you were to field a similar squad right now and maybe I'm too reluctant to spend points on all those available upgrades, but in my experience, CSM squads don't deliver the same flexibility and power anymore, as they did in the previous codex (long sentences ftw.!). Previously, they were the backbone of my army lists and carried my lists through the thick of most engagements, while I see them die and run all the time (ok, this is exaggerated, but it does happen notably more often) now.

 

My gaming group is as nice and varied as yours does sound, so it's not my opponents or their lists, in my opinion. So if you have good ideas and recommendations on how to get my CSM to shine again, I'd really appreciate it, because I don't want to switch to all cultists, but feel the draw towards it... :/

 

Edit: This might be good for a different topic, I guess ^^"

[Noctus Cornix]

I'd agree. If you make a new thread about Chaos Space Marines, I'll be sure to voice some experiences and opinions.

[Chaeron]

 

Jeske is burnt out to the point fun doesn't register with him anymore.

 

Nah, it's just a measure of his local meta.  It's all tournaments all the time in Russia, apparently, so he learned the game as a purely min-max-style event.

 

It's a dog-eat-dog world. But, prepares you well for competitive play I suppose!

[dethric]

I hope no one minds me getting back on topic.

I really like the Gift of Mutation as an upgrade and i give it to my HQ when i have the points to spare, mostly a Slaaneshi lord on a bike. Now, mostly i get things that are not too useful, but then again, nothing is really bad. Looking at the table i find that about 17/26 of the results are above "nice", and the rest is either redundat or does not make too much of a difference on my biker lord (Stubborn, +1 BS, Witch Eater, HoW, Crusader, Fleet, Shred). 

I have yet to try a list where i spam it on as many champs as possible, but it might be fun, some of them are bound to get something nice, like 2+ armor, poison or shrouded. 

Most fun i have had with it this far, including things i have got during the game was getting witch eater from GoM and killing a Farseer with it, this kill gave me the Spawnhood result which was hilarious. (We were not sure if the hit from witch eater counts as a hit from the Lord, but we ruled that it was too fun to not roll on the table :P)

[the jeske]

See, you're still bringing in assumptions I'm not. Maybe the Marine

player is using Fists or Salamanders tactics and doesn't have Scout on

his HQ. Maybe the Chaos Lord has a jump pack and Deep Struck. Who knows.

I'm literally just making up hypotheticals. If you're really telling me

that out of every possible Marine list against every possible CSM list,

you can't imagine a single situation in which a Chaos Lord gets to kill

a Tactical Marine? Then I give up.

because if he is playing fist he takes a cent spam and the csm will not get in to melee. And if he plays green marines he shouldn't be using salamnder tactics , because they are weak .

 

The idea that a chaos lord would be deep striking [risking being intercepted] , which would require the rebuilding of the whole list for it to work [and it still wouldn't] , is laughable . Bad choices are non choices , they don't exist. And to just make the case. If a lord would deep strike near a space marine army , he would need to survive a turn of grav saturation[and that is just one army , anything with D weapons would be horrible for such an army or stuff that can out melee it]  . Cover wouldn't help him[negated] and chaos doesn't have access to re-rollable +2 , so he and his unit would bite the bullet unless the unit would be 16+strong or 12-14 with multiple HQs, but the  the list would be crippled by the cost of such a unit , the list would have to ignore support units to take the deepstriking death star , if on top of it it would take csm as troops it would risk tabling.

 

 

And if you ask me if I test all set up for chaos units , yes I did that . Then I retest lists when DLC comes outs , If I don't know how something would work or am not sure how it would work [like 6th start and demons multi FMC list and how they would fair against other armies] , I retest the lists when new army books for other armies come up too. I do it like that since 2ed.

 

 

 

Except they aren't... CSM can do close combat just fine. They can

have 2 attacks standard and 3 on the charge and depending on what which

mark you give them, they have the same combat abilities as Vanguard

veterans at base without the power weapons. They're obviously not made

to be a gunline, they're supposed to be used for mid to close ranged

combat They almost never really fail me in standard games.

 

When was the last time you have seen something like vanguard vets in something else then BA list[and then they are a minimax delivery system for meltabombs , because of DoA and charge after deep strike].

 

If a CSM tries to be a melee unit , it fails because it doesn't have the proper delivery system for it.

If CSM tries to do melee as support [like many mid/short range armies do] , it has to deal with units that do the same for other armies . The csm does not outmelee a seer or screamer star , does not outmelee demon FMCS , struggles[due to points ratio and ATKNF] against other marines and doesn't have the adventage over biker csm[hammer +charing vs pistol/ccw or ultragrit]. When one adds stuff like knights [who do melee] the csm with his lack of ATKNF/fearless does not melee "well" against units that everyone else beats in melee too.

 

 

Maybe I still rate them too high from the previous codex, were they had

everything included already and could reroll morale checks for a meagre

10 points

 

I would like to point out that back in 5th , PMs were outclassing csm as chaos troop. The last time they were used en mass was in 3.5 times , and then they and the game were different from what we have today.

[Kythnos]

 

 

Maybe I still rate them too high from the previous codex, were they had

everything included already and could reroll morale checks for a meagre

10 points

 

I would like to point out that back in 5th , PMs were outclassing csm as chaos troop. The last time they were used en mass was in 3.5 times , and then they and the game were different from what we have today.

 

Which is certainly true, but doesn't change my point that standard CSM were quite useable last edition, even if they weren't the best choice available.

[Excessus]

Indeed, the fact that they got ubergrit and +1Ld as standard, and with the possibility to re-roll morale and pinning for 10 points per squad was really nice! Sure, PMs were better as usual, but they weren't in such a bad way they are now...

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

had a game today, my aspiring sorcerer killed a biker sergeant, got stubbon, then had to challenge Khan on bike who killed him.
So many parts of the table are useless it's unreal, not enough to make up for always having to challenge.