MC/Fliers Line of Sight

[Butters]

If a monsterous creature or flier stop its movement say directly to the right of a target can they still shoot at it.

 

Example:

A stormtalon stops a few inches away and almost parallel to a tank or other vehicle.  The assault cannon can rotate so obviously it can hit but what about the other weapons (typhoon las or heavy bolter).  I thought that maybe a missile could shoot because it just needs to lock target but definitelly not a lascannon or bolter.

 

Same thing with a monsterous creature.  The guy I was playing said that they could because they can just move their arm and fire.  But a dreadnaught has to be specificaly facing a target to shoot at it.

 

Also after a tyrannid hive tyrant vector strike he lands past the unit he vector struck.  Can he shoot at that unit even though he zoomed and is facing away from them?

 

A little calrification would be great.

Thanks!</p>

[Lysere]

Monstrous creatures can aim in all directions like infantry so they can in fact do that, storm talons can fire in all directions with their assault cannons as well so again they can. The Storm talon's other weapon however can not do that and can only fire the way it is facing.

[Butters]

OK awesome.  Thanks that clarifies it better.

[Kristoff]

Simplest way to remember: Vehicles have fixed arcs with weapons that are not on turrets. Everyone else doesn't care or matter which direction they are facing.

[Quixus]

While turrets have a 360° firing arc on the horizontal plane, I'm not aware that their vertical firing arc is any larger than what you should be physically able to do with the model.

[Eddie Orlock]

While turrets have a 360° firing arc on the horizontal plane, I'm not aware that their vertical firing arc is any larger than what you should be physically able to do with the model.

I seem to recall a passage in the book that says to default to what the model is capable of, but in the event that it's glued or otherwise restrained weapons are assumed to depress and elevate up to 45°

[Seahawk]

45 degrees up and down. If you're point blank, you cannot shoot anything because you're way too high. 

 

Just like regular planes, you must be further back to be able to fire.

[Quixus]

I seem to recall a passage in the book that says to default to what the model is capable of, but in the event that it's glued or otherwise restrained weapons are assumed to depress and elevate up to 45°

Oh yeah I forgot about that (WH40K p. 72). The problem is that we do not know how that angle is measured. For example in case of the Storm talon turret, is it 45° downward from the horizontal plane or 22,5° downward and 22,5° upward, or is the midpoint of the swing at some other point (e.g. 10° up, 35° down)?

[greggles]

It's 45 degrees total. (22.5 in either direction) for a "hull" mounted weapon. The stormtalon has a lot of movement in it's gun, so I imagine the assault cannon does not follow this restriction. (just whatever the gun can point at).

 

We had a huge debate over this the other day with the night scythes. They have a hugely restrictive field of fire if you actually follow the rules. Most people don't, and try to claim that fluff says they have a turret.

 

This is an edited image from dakka, showing the range of the nightscythes guns. (and any other fixed hull plane, such as a dakkajet, razorwing, missiles on stormraven). This doesn't include any flyer with a turret mounted weapon (such as the stormraven). The stormraven in particular actually has a significantly larger dead zone around it, and its very difficult for it to engage nearby targets.

 

http://www.3dluvr.com/crossbow/warhammer/arc.jpg

 

The 8" # is the minimum firing distance to drawn a 22.5 degree angle from the gun to the table surface, on stock GW flyer base height (not modeled for advantage). Of course, if the model is taller, the distance will be less. (that's just to the table surface).

 

This really shows the limitations in firing arcs on hull weapons on flyers, and how important placement really is.

[Fibonacci]

5th edition had an illustration in the vehicle section for a hull mounted weapon's arc of fire.  If you still have a copy laying around it's on page 59. 

[Quixus]

5th edition had an illustration in the vehicle section for a hull mounted weapon's arc of fire.  If you still have a copy laying around it's on page 59.

That is only the horizontal arc. A similar picture is on p. 72 of the 6th Edition rulebook. Neither have bearing on the discussion at hand though, because we are talking about the arc created by rotating the weapon up and down, not left and right.

[Raeven]

45 degrees up and down. If you're point blank, you cannot shoot anything because you're way too high.

 

Just like regular planes, you must be further back to be able to fire.

Regular planes can dive and roll. But we aren't comparing real life to arbitrary game rules I hope?

[greggles]

Real plans can dive and roll...but have extremely limited mobility when flying close to the ground. Look at an a10 for example. Though it can dive to shoot a phalanx of tanks, it must both setup said straving run vs the tanks as well as set its speed and dive angle to prevent ground impact.

 

I think flyers having restrictions on how close they can shoot at something makes complete sense. Its the whole point of them. Mobility is their asset and weakness.

[Fibonacci]

 

5th edition had an illustration in the vehicle section for a hull mounted weapon's arc of fire.  If you still have a copy laying around it's on page 59.

That is only the horizontal arc. A similar picture is on p. 72 of the 6th Edition rulebook. Neither have bearing on the discussion at hand though, because we are talking about the arc created by rotating the weapon up and down, not left and right.

:lol:

Too funny.

[Seahawk]

"assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 degrees" (p.72)

 

Yes, if you are too close, you cannot shoot. Regardless of how much one likes or dislikes them, that's what we have to go on.

[Lysere]

Real plans can dive and roll...but have extremely limited mobility when flying close to the ground. Look at an a10 for example. Though it can dive to shoot a phalanx of tanks, it must both setup said straving run vs the tanks as well as set its speed and dive angle to prevent ground impact.

 

I think flyers having restrictions on how close they can shoot at something makes complete sense. Its the whole point of them. Mobility is their asset and weakness.

 

The A10 is also a flying brick compared to most planes, so it'd get along with the marines own flying brick the storm raven.

[Butters]

Yeah it does make sense.  But at the same time the strafing run rule should make them be able to shoot as they move or something. 

[Quixus]

Real plans can dive and roll...but have extremely limited mobility when flying close to the ground. Look at an a10 for example. Though it can dive to shoot a phalanx of tanks, it must both setup said straving run vs the tanks as well as set its speed and dive angle to prevent ground impact.

if we're comparing the game to real life, most vehicle weapons do not have an effective range of only 12m-48m (using the 1" : 1m scale)

[Raeven]

Now, you can adjust the model on it's stand by tilting it forward or back some.  Should players be allowed to do so to increase their FoV for forward facing hull mounted weapons?

 

Me, I favor yes ,barring pulling it off the stand or tilting the model so much it becomes unstable.

[Eddie Orlock]

Should players be allowed to do so to increase their FoV for forward facing hull mounted weapons?

Maybe, but it also depends on your group's opinion on other instances of 'modelling for advantage'. Are you okay with dynamically posed wraithlords crouching behind buildings? Imperial gaurd officers modelled as though their in fox holes holding their hats out on short sticks?

 

The game rules imply a reference to the models under the assumption that they models will be constructed in a manner similar to that shown in their sales literature.

[Raeven]

This isn't modelling for advantage.  The model itself, with it's cross shaped stand and socket, can be tilted up and down some degree just by picking it up and moving it to a new location.