My Opinion On The Lore

[Julgolax]

In the past for me, I've always been a fan of Khorne and Tzeentch, (and Nurgle to a lesser degree) because each of them make sense to me in this universe of war. Khorne embodies the sin of Wrath and embodies the act of Murder, Tzeentch embodies the sin of Envy and embodies the act of Betrayal, Nurgle embodies the sin of Sloth and the act of Diseasing. Slaanesh on the other hand does embody the sin of Lust and the act of Depravity, but this to me sounds more of a passive thing that's applicable only to nameless, underappreciated, and bored people rather than sterile, celibate, warrior psychopaths.

 

They tried to make something of this by creating a legion of people who loved the "pleasures" of the battlefield and who relish ever more depraved acts of violence and mutilation. This works I guess but it still sounded too much like an aspect of Khorne. The great thing about GW is they can retcon and they are GREAT at creating something new, and something new out of something old. (I look at Centurions, Knights, Heldrakes, and Baneblades) In this case of Slaanesh followers, you had the Flawless Host, who believed they were the best of the best, and most pure of all chapters as the Shining Blades, but then fell to their pride and began to slaughter those who questioned them. Then you have the Corpus Brethren, victims of a demon world, who have become cannibalistic madmen, charging into battle and feasting on their human victims.

 

I still have to say though, Slaanesh doesn't seem like a chaos god that Space Marines would bother worshiping or fighting for. It's almost like, in both cases, Slaanesh has to make victims out of space marines in order to get them under it's sway. What do you guys think?

[Forté]

Where to start...

 

Slaanesh isn't just the embodiment of pleasure and debasement but is actually so much more.

 

It is the God that makes you go that one step further for satisfaction in whatever area gives you pleasure. Being the best dualist, the best shot. But then another benchmark is put in front of you which needs to be attained to give you that buzz of achievement. But when you get there it is no longer enough for your craving.

 

A good example is the painter in the Fulgrim book. If you've not read it, give it a go. But I'll not spoil it here.

 

The other gods don't really embody sins as such. Khorne is actually a God of martial prowess which explains his disdain of psychers due to them not utilizing weapons to prove they are the better warriors. A Khorne warrior is a brutal butcher. A Slaanesh warrior is a measured warrior. Likely to be a step ahead of you due to sensing all his surroundings. Using less effort to slide around Khornes blow and aim one perfect strike to achieve the desired affect. Unlikely that would be death as that would be boring and the sensation would be gone too quickly.

 

I hope I've explained myself well enough.

[Kierdale]

Think Forte nailed it.

 

I'll just add a quick example:

Consider Khârn versus Lucius for the combat-size of things (which is but one aspect): Khârn is a berserker, he loses himself to bloodlust, while Lucius is a consumate duelist.

 

If you can get your hands on the Liber Chaotica it has a very interesting in-universe write up of a study of Slannesh. Beg it, borrow it, steal it if need be.

[Julgolax]

I actually do have Fulgrim (the novel). I suppose I'll give it deeper read.

 

I suppose I'm just curious about how a Chaos Space Marine would bother with Slaanesh when you have the plague-slicked resilience from Nurgle, the sheer brutal strength from Khorne, and the the mystical, magical, warp power of Tzeentch. Forte did seem to nail it on the head though.

 

I suppose I've seen too much Slaanesh artwork depicting homoerotic themes and flesh-masks... Little too creepy for me. :S

[Kilofix]

There are subtleties around each Chaos faction.

 

As Forte alludes - Slaanesh'ies ('ites?) are artists - they actually strive for perfection - even if their view of it is twisted. That goes for dueling, to the embellishments on their armor, to Noise Marines 'coordinating' the harmonic output of their Sonic Blasters. That isn't being passive. That's hard work.

 

Being with Slaanesh isn't like an individual just wasted on drugs. Its more like being a genius artist - that could possibly maybe likely just happen to be under the influence of s#x, drugs and rock and roll.

 

 

On a related note, Nurgle is life, Nurgle is generous and Nurgle is also hardworking. They are not slothful. Plaguebearers work very hard under very difficult conditions to catalog Father Nurgle's various diseases.

[Forté]

You could actually go on to say that all Chaos worshippers unknowingly serve Slaanesh.

Khorne crave more blood and carnage to the point they would jump on their own weapons.

Tzeentch followers want all the knowledge they can find to the point or madness.

Nurgle want to infect everything with the creations of their Lord.

 

It's all about that point where the boundary moves past what is morally ok to where it is going too far. And then going much much further.

 

The main problem with Slaanesh in the game is that it doesn't translate to the table top very well. And players have their own limits for what looks right and wrong so you see forces of models with paint schemes which do look extreme when compared to how most people paint (pink being the usual). But still within the usual boundaries. Where if you look at the more extreme modern art you start to see what could happen. Now push those boundaries again by a few thousand years of experience and personally you have some vary scary possibilities.

[Tenebris]

Well consider the following, Slaanesh is a god that values elitists, young princes, imperious people, master orators, sublime dancers, great architects and so on. Slaanesh is the god of the chosen, of those who partake in art, who have an inflated ego, who see themselves as the center around which the universe revolves. In short, Slaanesh is the god of the would be kings, lords, tyrants, enslavers and princes.

 

Slaanesh is all about personal gratification, a gratification often found in partaking the fruits of your hard labor, in enjoying expensive food, orgies, fine wines, virgins, riches, art and everything else that would denote you as a chosen person, as an elite person. Your armor is not only ornate, but it is carved by the best artists, your training is done under the supervision of the most illustrious mentors, your armies are as much devoted to you as they are to a prince, to a god. By following Slaanesh you become a god, you are worshipped, served, elevated, respected, obeyed by the masses under your command. You are effectively a young prince, you have your own court, you have sycophants everywhere around you and you enjoy the finest things in life. So much devotion, so much pleasure are considered by you as your entitlement, as your right and slowly you become ever more extroversive in your seeking of devotion, pleasure and grace. 

 

Why an astartes follows Slaanesh? Well the actual question should be why not? A space marine is essentially a demigod and a nigh immortal being. Not only a space marine has the weapons and the skill fit for a slayer of kings but their towering egos can easily crave the rightful dread of mortals, their veneration, their obedience to you and you alone. An Emperor's Children marine came from the noblest of stocks, elevated in a life of duty but also of immense privilege, a marine as fit to act as a king as he was a warrior and Slaanesh only stoked this pride, this ego and this fearsome skill in the arts of battle to monstrous heights.

 

A Slaaneshi marine is effectively a prince on his own, you are entitled to the finest things that your skill in battle, the favor of a god and the mighty of your legion granted you and you have the means, the patronage and the servants to increase this by manifold. Not only that Slaanesh rewards his followers a lot, he indulges in every their whim and a demigod who has been living since the HH era can have many such whims. 

 

To serve Slaanesh is to be adored and venerated in turn like a god. People prostrate before you, they serve you, they kill and die for you but above all they love you with every fibre of their beings. To be a Slaaneshi marine is to be an elite, a king among demigods, to have the access to the most beautiful weapons, ships and servants ever desired, to see every whim and fancy granted and to have at your feet entire worlds. In short to follow Slaanesh is to partake the fruits of godhood as a mortal, and by than, what is death other than another exquisite experience to sample. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

I suppose I'm just curious about how a Chaos Space Marine would bother with Slaanesh when you have the plague-slicked resilience from Nurgle, the sheer brutal strength from Khorne, and the the mystical, magical, warp power of Tzeentch. Forte did seem to nail it on the head though.

 

The problem is that you're looking at this from a gameplay perspective. No Chaos Marine goes "you know what? I wish I was stronger. I'ma start worshipping Khorne now!"

They don't worship the gods because Nurgle will make them harder to kill, or Khorne will make them stronger. They worship the gods because that's what calls to them. They worship Nurgle, not to get +1 Toughness, but because they're terrified of death, and of mortality, and because Nurgle can offer them peace, albeit at a cost. Similarly, they worship Slaanesh, not because they want +1 Initiative, but because they want perfection. They want that perfect killing stroke in a duel, the perfect crescendo to the song, that pure orgasmic thrill that they get so, so close to, but can never truly reach.

 

Slaanesh promises that they will reach that goal, but keeps moving the goal posts. You got better at duelling like you wanted? You can always be cleaner. You can always be quicker. Why not stretch the duel out, to really prove your skill? Why not allow them to get the shallowest of cuts to your face? After all, anyone can parry a blow, but to direct it with such finesse, isn't that truly the mark of a master? Now that your skill is proven, that you've shown that you have directed their every move exactly how you want it, now you can slip between their movements, to ever so delicately sever the jugular, without getting a drop of blood on you. You can do it quicker next time though. You can get a more precise cut. This time just wasn't good enough.

 

What starts off so innocently as simply trying to improve, to find pleasure in what you love, turns into insanity and pure excess. Duelling turns into torture, the gourmet into the cannibal, the dabbler into the hedonist.

 

And all the while, Slaanesh is promising more. You can be cleaner, you can be quicker.

You can always be better.

[ElectricPaladin]

A lot of the appeal of Slaanesh is meant to be the contrast between life as a worshipper of Slaanesh and the life of a loyal Space Marine. Astartes are indoctrinated to live lives of total self-sacrifice. They give up everything. I'm not just talking about sex here - I'm talking about fun, relaxation, and pleasure as a concept. The average loyal Space Marine doesn't have hobbies, doesn't have friends outside his battle brothers, eats gruel-like nutrient paste, sleeps on a hard cot in a barracks, and spends all day either practicing for war, preparing for war, fighting a war, or recovering from war... and that's it. Their only love is for their wargear and their battle brothers. Their only hope is glory or death.

 

And along comes Slaanesh, and s/he promises you joy. She tells you that you deserve pleasure. It isn't enough that you do your duty, s/he says, you should enjoy it. And if you don't enjoy it... do something else.

 

Of course, Space Marines are terribly stunted creatures, so it's unlikely that they are going to give up war and become gourmands or sybarites - though I imagine that some Slaaneshi Marines take on food, drugs, or even what little limited sexual activity they are capable of as hobbies - but Slaanesh's offer is appealing nonetheless. Don't just do what you're told - do what you love, in the way that you love it, and do it all the time, without pause or mercy.

 

For the corrupt and decadent planetary governor, Slaanesh offers pleasure, it's true. But for the Astartes, Slaanesh offers something else - s/he offers freedom. To a certain extent, this is true of all the Chaos gods: Tzeentch offers freedom from choice, Khorne frees his followers from the need for restraint or mercy, and Nurgle frees you from the fear of death or infirmity. However, for the duty-bound Astartes, the freedom that Slaanesh offers is the sweetest. S/he offers them the freedom to have something - anything - in their lives beyond war.

 

Of course, the irony is that choosing to follow Slaanesh means that you are choosing a life of endless war, just on the other side. It means that all pleasures will eventually fade as the neural connections in your transhuman-but-ultimately-limited brain are burned out by ceaseless stimulation until only the pleasures that Slaanesh finds useful remain. But... well, they don't call them the Ruinous Powers for nothing. What did you think you were getting yourself into? Had you actually imagined that you'd found a way out?

 

Foolish child.

[Lepaca]

Slaanesh is also about self-gradification.

The Space Marines are the best of the best, the most powerful, the ultimate warriors of the Empire. But what do they have to show for it? They live lives of self-sacrifice and humble moderation. They spend their time either in monasteries (which often do not offer much in terms of comfort or luxury) or on the battlefield, risking their lives for others, who get to experience what is denied to the Astartes (things like luxury and wealth, but also simple things like families or romance).

I think it would be very appealing for individuals in such a situation to use their power to fulfill their own desires. And that is exactly how Slaanesh's whispers might corrupt (or liberate?) event he most stalwart of Space Marines. It might start off with something small, like keeping a relic from the battlefield for yourself, but step by step the next boundary will be broken, morals and traditions abandoned. Until finally all hesitation falls away and all that power is used only to fulfill one's own, progressively darker and more base, desires.

 

EDIT: Ok, so I just realized that ElectricPaladin basically wrote the same things as me but sooner and better. :D

[refuse]

Where to start...

 

Slaanesh isn't just the embodiment of pleasure and debasement but is actually so much more.

 

It is the God that makes you go that one step further for satisfaction in whatever area gives you pleasure. Being the best dualist, the best shot. But then another benchmark is put in front of you which needs to be attained to give you that buzz of achievement. But when you get there it is no longer enough for your craving.

 

A good example is the painter in the Fulgrim book. If you've not read it, give it a go. But I'll not spoil it here.

 

The other gods don't really embody sins as such. Khorne is actually a God of martial prowess which explains his disdain of psychers due to them not utilizing weapons to prove they are the better warriors. A Khorne warrior is a brutal butcher. A Slaanesh warrior is a measured warrior. Likely to be a step ahead of you due to sensing all his surroundings. Using less effort to slide around Khornes blow and aim one perfect strike to achieve the desired affect. Unlikely that would be death as that would be boring and the sensation would be gone too quickly.

 

I hope I've explained myself well enough.

 

 

  Many years ago, the B&C had a big discussion on this.  I captured it here:

http://29thgreatcompany.home.comcast.net/~29thgreatcompany/ideas/chaosfight.htm

 

  It was kind of a Role Playing thread where each of the people talked to the others in the tone of their Gods.

 

  I summed up my thoughts here:

http://29thgreatcompany.home.comcast.net/~29thgreatcompany/ideas/chaosmusings.htm

 

 

Here is a repost of the above link:

 

This discussion between the different Chaos factions is actually how I think the way that each of the chapters would interact. (except they would really just shoot each other.)

 

My opinion is that each Power/or lack there of expresses one baser emotion. Something that drives them, and gives them purpose through the ages. It is these baser emotions that give them power through the Warp.

 

The horror of this is that you are damned (depending on definition), blinds them to the reality of their situation.

 

There is a great story about two brothers in the Slaves to Darkness. They both follow the path to Chaos. One brother follows Khorne, the other Follows Slaanesh. The story is spread throughout the book, with a picture of them climbing a "bean pole" of chaos. Each becomes a master of their god. But the Slaanesh brother, in a moment of weakness sees what he has become, and the path to damnation he follows. He falls from the path, and becomes a Spawn. The Khorne brother never looks back and is ultimate rewarded with daemon hood.

 

Now in Slave to darkness not everyone became a Daemon Prince. You could be elevated to a lesser daemon status, and then in the service to your god get promoted from there. So many of the lesser daemons were once human. Their only purpose is to serve. Those gifted with eternal life, but not deserving of Daemon Prince Status are the minions you summon!

 

So even the most "aware" devotees of Slaanesh would still blind themselves to their reality. They could see chaos in all its color, see the limitations and advantages of each of the followers of Chaos. But to question what you have become, or what you are is a sure path to spawndom.

 

We have 9 legions that fell to chaos (fell being from the Imperial stand point).

 

4 Major, 4 Minor and 1 center.

The one center being the Black Legion. Truly more generically aligned then unaligned. They are Chaos Undivided. The whole of Chaos as one.

 

The 4 Major Powers

Slaanesh - Emperor's Children

Khorne - Word Bearers

Nurgle - Death Guard

Tzeentch - Thousand sons.

 

Then the minors. In slaves to Darkness the other 4 were aligned less strongly with one of the 4 major. (Night Lords were aligned with Khorne, Iron Warriors with Slaanesh).

 

So we have the 4 major points and 4 minor points of Chaos (I have been playing for far to long, is it obvious?)

 

So if we cut out the comic book ness of 2nd edition and the first Codex of 3rd, we have the legions of chaos very fractured. Not because they are unintelligent, but because they follow something. And by only absolute belief in that something can they obtain Daemonhood. Any straying from that path leads to Spawndom.

 

Now my opinons are my own, but I feel that when mortals start following the gods they have many ways to get on the path. But as they get farther along the path narrows.

 

Examples:

---Entry to the powers

Follower of Khorne - Initially kills for martial honor and pride. Only fights warriors and perhaps finds it below them to kill inferior warriors.

 

Followor of Slaanesh - Gets hooked on gambling, drugs, fighting, sex, music, adrenalin sports or some other mundane addiction. They believe that they have some control and that there are things they wouldn't do. (such as overdosing, or trying harder drugs, or perhaps stealing).

 

---Midlevel

Follower of Khorne - They have gained Khornes attention, they are fully on the path now. They find that a day they do not kill on is a day Khorne is displeased with them. They might start justifying killing all opponents on the field. Perhaps killing everyone in a town they are attacking. They are the enemy after all. Totally forgetting their ideals of once. Khorne cares not from where the blood flows. Perhaps they kill a friend they see as week or was about to run.

 

Follower of Slaanesh - All sense of decency is pretty much gone. They do things they never thought they would. They have crossed any sense of mortality. They live for the moment. Many burn out at this phase. They either don't think, or justify their acts. Things like fornicating with things you never even thought about, torturing, trying drugs that could kill, or will have permanent damage. The path is set. They have lost the sense.

 

---High Level

Follower of Khorne - All within reach die. Soldiers with them are spared, but if they show any weakness they are slain. Survivors are killed when found. A mortally wounded friend is killed to assure his skull is sent to Khorne. If the follower is about to die, they would rather kill themselves and send their skull to Khorne then take the chance it doesn't make it.

 

Follower of Slaanesh - They have transcended mortal experiences. Sex, drugs, music (as we understand it) are background noise in their day. Experiences that would strip the mind from a normal person are nothing to them. Orgies, gladiatorial combat, sonic walls, garish colors are required to even register. They are hardly human. Torture and pain are just a moment. They strive for anything that breaks the monotony of life. Looking only for the next sensation.

 

 

That is my ramblings on how I view things. Mostly a dark world, where your reward is an eternity in service to the dark power you serve.

 

Now for the unaligned, there is still some patron you serve. While not one of the big 4, you still serve.

 

 

And as for the Emperor, think about this. When a marine dies in the graces of the Emperor, his soul goes to the Emperor. Same as with any of the other Chaos Gods.