Inquisitor Kravin Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Theoretical - In Know No Fear it is stated that the Ultramarines Legion (and the worlds of Ultramar that they govern) are the most organised, disciplined and loyal in the Imperium. We also learn that Oll Persson has travelled to Calth because he wishes to practice his Catheric faith. For eighteen years he lives on Calth and regularly worships at the Catheric chapel near the edge of his fields. How can we reconcile these two statements? The Imperial Truth forbids religion. It's not just a vague, "Oh, nobody really believes that stuff anymore." attitude in society. It is a crime against the state punishable by death (see The Last Church if in any doubt about how seriously the Emperor takes secularism). Look at Oath of Moment to see how seriously the Ultramarines take compliance with the Emperor's edicts. Practical - We know from Know No Fear and Honour To The Dead that there were at least two titan legions on Calth. Why?! Calth isn't a forge world and isn't a warzone which means that instead of keeping the titans on their ships in orbit they were loaded onto orbital lander/lifter craft described as 2,000m long and 300m high, shuttled to the planet's surface, unloaded, marched somewhere, marched back and loaded back onto their lifters for shuttle back to their transports in orbit. That's a staggering expenditure of resources for no practical or even symbolic purpose that I can see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289322-calth-questions-theoretical-practical/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I can answer the second one pretty easy: Field training. Armies do it all the time, more when the senior command wants to train. Units will move about aimlessly for reasons only known to the battle staff. I have honestly don't the exact same thing while in the Army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289322-calth-questions-theoretical-practical/#findComment-3648283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Maybe the Titans were down there for a photo shoot? Oll lived on a farm, it'd be pretty easy for him to have a small shrine somewhere on his land where visitors rarely go. If someone did happen to come by, a crop inspector or something, I don't think it would be immediately obvious what it was, and that's if they even see it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289322-calth-questions-theoretical-practical/#findComment-3648285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted April 10, 2014 Author Share Posted April 10, 2014 I wondered about field training and it made sense to have the Army units on the ground. Men are a lot easier to move about, it would be better for morale than having them cooped up on space ships and there was a mention of reassigning some units between transports so unloading everyone, shuffling them around and then re-packing the bulk troop transports made sense. Titans though only travel on dedicated Legio transports and a bustling civilised world is hardly the place for Titans to use for maneuvers. I also wondered about the photo-op angle. Was it a case of, get everyone together for a big pre-op parade to get everyone fired up? Guilliman intended to have a big formal ceremony where the XIII welcomed the XVII but Ventanus sees the titans marching to the spaceport hours before the Word Bearers arrive. My best answer is therefore that Guilliman wanted a big showy ceremony but decided that maybe he'd gone over the top and was going to look extravagent to Lorgar so he decided to dial it back a bit. Now I have visions of an Ultramarines captain getting the dubious honour of "Legion Party Planner".Oll's worship wasn't at a secret personal shrine. It was a chapel and people nicknamed him "Pious" because of how diligent he was at worshipping there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289322-calth-questions-theoretical-practical/#findComment-3648296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 The Imperium has always enjoyed symbolism, and there's very little that's quite as symbolic of Imperial military might than a formation of Titans marching along. We know from novels such as the Eisenhorn omnibus (Malleus,, I think it is?) and Titanicus that the Imperium loves holding military parades to show off their varied and amazing armed forces. Or maybe it's just Abnett who likes them, seeing as how all three novels in question are by him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289322-calth-questions-theoretical-practical/#findComment-3648306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Seeing as the Sons of Horus can't stop the imperial cult from growing inside their own warships, I can see how an entire planet might have one functioning chapel =) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289322-calth-questions-theoretical-practical/#findComment-3648312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 As far as Oll goes.... Firstly, the XIII are, above all else, a practical Legion. Look how fast Guilliman repealed the Edict of Nikea when he realized the Librarius was the best weapon against Lorgar's daemonology. Second, wiping out religion is hard. Very hard. Even on Terra itself, there's a temple to Death within sight of the Imperial Palace, and this centuries after the Unification Wars and the creation of the Imperial Truth. In my opinion, Guilliman probably loudly proclaimed the Imperial Truth once Ultramar was brought into the fold, and then set about turning a blind eye to all but the most blatant violations of it, as he has better things to do than waste time and resources slaughtering tax paying citizens of the 500 Worlds over the fine points of dogma. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289322-calth-questions-theoretical-practical/#findComment-3648320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted April 10, 2014 Author Share Posted April 10, 2014 Seeing as the Sons of Horus can't stop the imperial cult from growing inside their own warships, I can see how an entire planet might have one functioning chapel =) But they weren't the XIIIth, the best and most organised legion. Are you telling me that whilst Guilliman lived the Ultramarines actually let things happen in Ultramar without permits issued and stamped in triplicate?! To be honest for all that the Ultramarines get stick and we have threads here saying Roboute's more administrator than warrior the way the Ultramarines operate is the most plausible. You can't take the personal charisma and brotherhood that bonds a score of tribemen on a feral world alone and scale it up to a legion of 100,000 warriors scattered across the stars. Warriors win battles but the battles never take place without the logistical machinery to get those warriors where they need to be, when they need to be, with the kit they need to do their jobs. In my opinion, Guilliman probably loudly proclaimed the Imperial Truth once Ultramar was brought into the fold, and then set about turning a blind eye to all but the most blatant violations of it, as he has better things to do than waste time and resources slaughtering tax paying citizens of the 500 Worlds over the fine points of dogma. HERESY! The Imperium didn't get where it did today by not slaughtering its loyal subjects over fine points of dogma...oh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289322-calth-questions-theoretical-practical/#findComment-3648332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 What's this, people breaking the law to do what they want? It's almost like saying people smoke weed when its illegal, drink underage, or drive under the influence. Seriously, that's exactly what it is though. People do what they want regardless of whether or not it is legal. That's why the ones who do obey the law are called law-abiding citizens, even though all citizens are required to obey the law. So the very simple answer is that Oll Persson and apparently a few others built a chapel. And then nobody ratted him out. Wouldn't be the first time someone's done something illegal and nobody ratted them out because it was "harmless". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289322-calth-questions-theoretical-practical/#findComment-3648507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Yeah I think it's a little generous to say any Primarch can know everything on a planet he doesn't even live on. People have their own secrets and break the law. Nuff said. Wade Garret; did Guilliman actually repeal the Edict of Nikea? He mused on it but did he actually repeal it as of yet? Going forward we will probably see a council between Primarch in Ultramar where the new Emperor Sanguinius will be convinced by the Lion and Guilliman to repeal the Edict. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289322-calth-questions-theoretical-practical/#findComment-3648552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Yeah I think it's a little generous to say any Primarch can know everything on a planet he doesn't even live on. People have their own secrets and break the law. Nuff said. Wade Garret; did Guilliman actually repeal the Edict of Nikea? He mused on it but did he actually repeal it as of yet? Going forward we will probably see a council between Primarch in Ultramar where the new Emperor Sanguinius will be convinced by the Lion and Guilliman to repeal the Edict. In Unremembered Empire, Guilliman determines that given the enemy using warp creatures, no contact with Terra, and the possibility Terra might have fallen into enemy hands due to lack of information otherwise, Guilliman reaches the conclusion that a temporary repeal of the Edict is necessary, until he can at least re-establish contact with Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289322-calth-questions-theoretical-practical/#findComment-3648562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Kol Sarek has the right of it. In Guilliman's defense, he seems to have put thought into his repeal than, say, Lion'El Johnson did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289322-calth-questions-theoretical-practical/#findComment-3648590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I thought the Lion did a lot of thinking to reach his decision. He was simply more...adamant in standing by it :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289322-calth-questions-theoretical-practical/#findComment-3648598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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