alpha legion the strongest

[Excessus]

After reading this thread and seeing where it's headed:

http://i.imgur.com/pR75LKI.gif

Wasen't that obvious from the start?

[Kol Saresk]

Ah, see I was counting the totality of all forces defending the Ultramarine world of Armatura, not just the Evocatii. After all, with the way Forgeworld is tallying the strength of a Legion, there is an Astartes body count, and then everything it can bring to bear from tanks and armour(Iron Hands: Massacre, Iron Warriors; Extermination) to ships(Imperial Fists; Extermination, Word Bearers; Massacre).

 

Again, its part of the reason I say numbers are negligible in determining "which Legion is the strongest"(if such a thing can be determined) as those numbers cannot always be brought to bear and they cannot always be brought to bear as Astartes.

[LordReaper]

Saying Alpha Legion is the best is like saying Abaddon is actually competent

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Saying Alpha Legion is the best is like saying Abaddon is actually competent

 

Abaddon is, actually. Very much so.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

Saying Alpha Legion is the best is like saying Abaddon is actually competent

Abaddon is, actually. Very much so.

Abaddon is not competent.

 

He is exceptional. He is the stars that shine down on others' glass ceilings. He is pivotal to an entire galaxy in ways that only two other humans have ever been, and both he once called father or kin.

 

Abaddon is not competent, for he has gone too far beyond the levels of capability that denote competency to be bound by this otherwise humble term.

[Scribe]

 

 

 

Saying Alpha Legion is the best is like saying Abaddon is actually competent

Abaddon is, actually. Very much so.

Abaddon is not competent.

 

He is exceptional. He is the stars that shine down on others' glass ceilings. He is pivotal to an entire galaxy in ways that only two other humans have ever been, and both he once called father or kin.

 

Abaddon is not competent, for he has gone too far beyond the levels of capability that denote competency to be bound by this otherwise humble term.

 

Yes.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

We will see how "unbeatable" the Alpha Legion is, when Russ strikes back.

[Kol Saresk]

IIRC, he strikes back with the aid of "an unforeseen ally", so would it be a proper test of the Wolves if they had help?

[Warpsmith_Johnson]

The fact that the hydra legion has you squabbling like children over a piece of candy shows the strength of their way of war. The other legions must go to the enemy, whereas the get of Alpharius need only exist to destroy their foes, for they will destroy themselves .

[King Jackal]

"the unseen blade is the deadliest"

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Without defining "Strongest" or a point in time there is simply no way of measuring legions against one another.

 

Most legions believe themselves to be the strongest and if they don't it's usually because they go the other way and underestimate themselves - Imperial Fists, Iron Hands and Iron Warriors all seem to have a bit of a thing about needing to purge weakness.

From the latest FW material it seems that the Alpha Legion is a lot bigger than previously known. Given that their tactics are designed to amplify the impact of a small number of specialists they can perhaps have a more significant impact on the galactic balance of power than any other legion but because hiding their numbers is so important to them they're not going to commit their full resources at once plus they are already at war with themselves (see The Serpent Beneath). They suffer the weakness as the Orks. You can't kill the Legion by cutting off one head but because there is no single head it never acts as one unified entity.

[Tenebris]

An argument can be made to state the Alpha Legion as the "strongest" but I think this is not the case. Physically none is stronger than the Word Bearers and the Ultramarines in sheer number of astartes, ships, worlds, human followers, funds, alliances and so on... So no the Alpha Legion is not the strongest, but is is indeed the smartest and the most patient. 

 

In all things know this, the Alpha Legion will always win, even if they lose. Why? 

 

Because the Alpha Legion is a long term player, what is one day your strength they turn into your weakness another day, when you think you won them they have actually secured a victory, when you think that they are dead what you killed was merely a distraction. By carefully sheltering the true strength of the legion the Alpha Legion is very much capable to have the upper hand in any engagement for they are smart, fiendishly smart. 

 

Playing a game of shadows suits them like a second skin and as every proper snake they can shed their skin a thousand times over, always changing form, always evolving to meet their foes with an advantage and a plan. The skill of the Alpha Legion is to evolve into an army perfectly capable to deal with their targed and this fluidity is what makes them so dangerous.

 

By hiding their strength, by preparing for the inevitable grind of the Horus Heresy with months or years in advance and by conserving their assets, the Alpha Legion at the time of the Horus Heresy is undeniably the most dangerous foe for every astartes legion to face, even for their own legion. What we learned from Extermination is that the Alpha Legion are some very poisonous snakes and the only thing they need is to bite you once, when the poison is in your body it is over. Paramar was a clear show of this trait. 

 

But the strongest legion? No, not by a chance, but they can easily compete for the most insidious. 

 

In the end we speak of a legion that rivals the number of the largest astartes legions. Of a legion which is utterly alien to the imperium and to the warmaster and of a legion which has such a coldblooded discipline that almost every plan, even the most suicidal one is effectively an option for their commanders. We speak of a legion which has mastered the three most cardinal traits of the perfect warrior, patience, knowledge and finesse, which makes it a deadly prospect for any foe. 

 

It is quite probable that one on one given time the Alpha Legion would inevitably win against any other astartes legion or any opponent if this is the case, but the problem here is just that... time. Learn well from the Battle of Paramar for many nuggets of truth are hidden there. And most important of all, what is your victory is also theirs victory... so they are never effectively defeated unless they make their will to appear it so. 

[A D-B]

The fact that the hydra legion has you squabbling like children over a piece of candy shows the strength of their way of war. The other legions must go to the enemy, whereas the get of Alpharius need only exist to destroy their foes, for they will destroy themselves .

 

In fairness, that's kind of the problem as a lot of people describe this aspect. In various places, you see people mention seeing the Alpha Legion's presence through the lore as proof they're basically... better, smarter, cooler, more invisible, the only ones capable of impossible schemes, and so on. And there's been a vibe of that, I think, to some degree.

 

I think it's one thing to have a specialisation. It's awesome to have a modus operandi, and be excellent at a specific way of war. But when you're seeing implications that a Legion is "better" than the other Legions, you start encountering logic problems. If it's so awesome (as it's often shown to be) then why don't the other Legions do a lot of it themselves? If it's such a surefire way to screw over the other Legions, how come only one Legion - the newest, who's only had its primarch about 20 years - is so absolutely, perfectly flawless at it? And so on.

 

And as cunning as a serpent can be, there should also be a moment when the other team stamps on the snake's back, pinning it in place, and says "Okay, you've had your fun. Now stop that."

 

Having a speciality is great and characterful. Only waging war that way, and having it repeatedly be The Best Way with no counters to it, wouldn't be so great. 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

The fact that the hydra legion has you squabbling like children over a piece of candy shows the strength of their way of war. The other legions must go to the enemy, whereas the get of Alpharius need only exist to destroy their foes, for they will destroy themselves .

In fairness, that's kind of the problem as a lot of people describe this aspect. In various places, you see people mention seeing the Alpha Legion's presence through the lore as proof they're basically... better, smarter, cooler, more invisible, the only ones capable of impossible schemes, and so on. And there's been a vibe of that, I think, to some degree.

 

I think it's one thing to have a specialisation. It's awesome to have a modus operandi, and be excellent at a specific way of war. But when you're seeing implications that a Legion is "better" than the other Legions, you start encountering logic problems. If it's so awesome (as it's often shown to be) then why don't the other Legions do a lot of it themselves? If it's such a surefire way to screw over the other Legions, how come only one Legion - the newest, who's only had its primarch about 20 years - is so absolutely, perfectly flawless at it? And so on.

 

And as cunning as a serpent can be, there should also be a moment when the other team stamps on the snake's back, pinning it in place, and says "Okay, you've had your fun. Now stop that."

 

Having a speciality is great and characterful. Only waging war that way, and having it repeatedly be The Best Way with no counters to it, wouldn't be so great.

Yeah, I think the fct that at three different times the Alpha Legion has been beaten so bad that they could be declared "destroyed" would seem to say that when the Alpha Legion's plans do backfire, they backfire pretty bad.

[Tenebris]

As I have written above, the Battle of Paramar is a great template to work some ideas about the Alpha Legion around. Until the loyalist Iron Warriors fleet appeared all went smooth and clean but it all went to hell quite soon after that. Only the smarts of the Alpha Legion managed to salvage something of the operation but this is not always the case. 

 

The Alpha Legion are not the strongest, and they would not love to be seen as that for all the money in the universe. They are efficient, clinical and ruthless in execution, with layers upon layers of protocol and doctrines to fall back when things go wrong, but they are not faultless. Something can always ruin even the most perfect plan and usually when comes to that the Alpha Legion has not the manpower to see it through since it relies more on small scale operations and teams of operatives rather than on whole armies and guns blazing approach.

 

But when they carry out their plan, when there are no faults and surprises,... than, than the Alpha Legions is really the strongest legion out there and its marines usually live to tell the tale. 

[RapatoR]

 

The fact that the hydra legion has you squabbling like children over a piece of candy shows the strength of their way of war. The other legions must go to the enemy, whereas the get of Alpharius need only exist to destroy their foes, for they will destroy themselves .

 

In fairness, that's kind of the problem as a lot of people describe this aspect. In various places, you see people mention seeing the Alpha Legion's presence through the lore as proof they're basically... better, smarter, cooler, more invisible, the only ones capable of impossible schemes, and so on. And there's been a vibe of that, I think, to some degree.

 

I think it's one thing to have a specialisation. It's awesome to have a modus operandi, and be excellent at a specific way of war. But when you're seeing implications that a Legion is "better" than the other Legions, you start encountering logic problems. If it's so awesome (as it's often shown to be) then why don't the other Legions do a lot of it themselves? If it's such a surefire way to screw over the other Legions, how come only one Legion - the newest, who's only had its primarch about 20 years - is so absolutely, perfectly flawless at it? And so on.

 

And as cunning as a serpent can be, there should also be a moment when the other team stamps on the snake's back, pinning it in place, and says "Okay, you've had your fun. Now stop that."

 

Having a speciality is great and characterful. Only waging war that way, and having it repeatedly be The Best Way with no counters to it, wouldn't be so great. 

 

Well, frankly dislike how they become too "super-spyi" and I like FW steered their background in the 3,5 direction. On that note, are you planning to write something about AL in some point in future? I know you prefer AL from IA over "super-spies" so your view on it would be awesome (at least for me).

[A D-B]

 

 

 

The fact that the hydra legion has you squabbling like children over a piece of candy shows the strength of their way of war. The other legions must go to the enemy, whereas the get of Alpharius need only exist to destroy their foes, for they will destroy themselves .

In fairness, that's kind of the problem as a lot of people describe this aspect. In various places, you see people mention seeing the Alpha Legion's presence through the lore as proof they're basically... better, smarter, cooler, more invisible, the only ones capable of impossible schemes, and so on. And there's been a vibe of that, I think, to some degree.

 

I think it's one thing to have a specialisation. It's awesome to have a modus operandi, and be excellent at a specific way of war. But when you're seeing implications that a Legion is "better" than the other Legions, you start encountering logic problems. If it's so awesome (as it's often shown to be) then why don't the other Legions do a lot of it themselves? If it's such a surefire way to screw over the other Legions, how come only one Legion - the newest, who's only had its primarch about 20 years - is so absolutely, perfectly flawless at it? And so on.

 

And as cunning as a serpent can be, there should also be a moment when the other team stamps on the snake's back, pinning it in place, and says "Okay, you've had your fun. Now stop that."

 

Having a speciality is great and characterful. Only waging war that way, and having it repeatedly be The Best Way with no counters to it, wouldn't be so great.

Yeah, I think the fct that at three different times the Alpha Legion has been beaten so bad that they could be declared "destroyed" would seem to say that when the Alpha Legion's plans do backfire, they backfire pretty bad.

 

I concur, but none of that was in the Heresy. I was purely going on Heresy terms.

 

Great point, though.

[Blood Angel Scout]

Have the Alpha Legion had any outright success in the Heresy?

 

I know they stopped the Raven Guard in fully developing the production process for Astartes, sure there was a catch though, been awhile since read that, Paramar was successful eventually but at greater cost, though it can be argued that they failed to deal with a depleted Space Wolves (plus isn't there a Bjorn based tale mp3? that has him tearing up an Alpha Craft?) or White Scars, personal interpretation that when the Scars broke the blockade was they could have caused significant damage to the Alpha fleet, if not destroyed it as well as the attempt on Guiliman, 

 

The key concept is we don't know the plans of the Hydra, at least to me never have, there is always the possibility to "spin" any outcome as a victory as working toward the long goal....which is what I like about the way the Alpha's are portrayed is that there is a constant thread of speculation as even "official" figures aren't concrete or that they could be double-triple agents between rebels/loyalists because the Cabal showed them a possible path but are they adapting their own or taking up to 40K, what did happen to the primarch...even the missing ones, we've an idea what happened to them, whereas Alpharius's reported death is apparently false...  

 

And that is their strength, being unknown, element of surprise then attacking though if the surprise is lost then I consider them the same strength as any other legion who's favoured tactic strategy isn't working.....kill more of them quicker than they do us 

[Legatus]

The entire encounter between the Alpha Legion and the Ultramarines on Eskrador is questionable. If it occurred as the Index Astartes article of the Alpha Legion claims, then Alpharius is dead. Obviously BL, should they decide to have the Battle on Eskrador actually occur, can just retcon Alpharius back to life. But the Index Astartes article leaves no room for doubt. If that battle happened, then Alpharius is dead.

[Hyaenidae]

I'm still thinking Eskrador was the site of the Alpha Legion civil war, and only one primarch walked away. The whole Ultramarine presense was either a false flag cover, or they stumbled upon the civil war on accident, and all hell broke loose.

 

Fingers crossed.

[Perrin]

The entire encounter between the Alpha Legion and the Ultramarines on Eskrador is questionable. If it occurred as the Index Astartes article of the Alpha Legion claims, then Alpharius is dead. Obviously BL, should they decide to have the Battle on Eskrador actually occur, can just retcon Alpharius back to life. But the Index Astartes article leaves no room for doubt. If that battle happened, then Alpharius is dead.

 

I thought the account of the battle left it very much in doubt? I've only read the version of it that is an Inquisitors report, not sure if that's the same way it's presented in the Index Astartes article?

 

I'm very much leaning towards the scenario that Heathens mentioned. The AL v AL short story was great, and I think a confrontation between Alpharius and Omegon would be so much more feels than any other Primarchs, even Fulgrim and Manus.

 

If it was AL v AL, what purpose does it serve to pretend it was Ultras v AL?

 

 

 

If it was a Legion civil war it being post-Heresy throws a spanner in the "Omegon = Janus" theory.

[Legatus]

 

I thought the account of the battle left it very much in doubt?

 

As I said, the account of the entire battle is questionable. But if it turned out that the account was indeed produced by an Ultramarine, then the specific detail of Alpharius' death is not in question. Alpharius was surprised and caught of guard by the rapid advance of the Ultramarines on his position, he then strode through the battle smiting Ultramarines left and right, before being confronted by Guilliman. After the remaining Alpha Legion forces fled, the Ultramarines who had obtained Alpharius' body cremated it. Keep in mind that Guilliman had previously met Alpharius in person and had a lengthy debate with him about proper Marine doctrine.

 

The theme of the Index Astartes was also still very much that of the "hydra", and not one of "no one knows what they are up to". That the death of Alpharius did not diminish the Alpha Legion's resistance in the slightest was a trait that was touched upon earlier in the AL article, where Alpharius had often suddenly left his forces during a campaign, to observe how they would do without him. You know, when cutting off the head of a beast does not stop it. The battle on Eskrador ultimately demonstrated that.

[Tenebris]

To be clear...

 

"By this token the Alpha Legion had become unknowable, a self-sustaining, self-replicating force, a weapon that had transcended the flesh of the Legionaries that made it up and the hand that wielded it..."

 

This is the core theme of the Alpha Legion, their staying power, their ability to survive regardless of the wounds inflicted upon the legion, to persevere against all odds, to replicate, evolve and adapt. Here we do not speak of mere weapon deposits or hidden caches but we speak of a wholly different level of things. 

 

Example:

 

For every boltgun in active service, three others are being produced in hidden manofactorums, seven are hidden in secret deposits, nine are sheltered in coded and time-locked caches and three more are shrouded among the datastacks of the Alpha Legion, probably covered as some other item of war.

 

Now if the boltgun in active service is lost/destroyed/captured, there are so many sources for its recuperation that it is impossible to utterly destroy the weapon supplies of the Alpha Legion, there will be always around enough boltguns to equip the marines anew, no matter the losses.

 

 

Apply this logic into a macroscale, to units, ships, tanks, power armor supplies and recruits, and you will finally understand that when we speak of the Alpha Legion we must not speak in terms of unit or formation, but rather of organism and body. And you know, when a body is compromised it launches its kill organisms to deal with the threat, which applies even to rogue Alpha Legion cells. 

 

Does this make the Alpha Legion the strongest? No, but is surely does make the XXth Legiones Astartes the most hard to destroy or cripple. 

 

It is all a thing of fallback plans, failsafes and an overall control. The Alpha Legion marines are the ultimate control freaks. 

[Wade Garrett]

This assumes that whoever was in charge of caching the bolters bothered to accurately report their location to his battle brothers.

 

Given that Serpent Beneath

shows us that XX officers commanding a base would file false base schematics with high command, I call that an unfounded assumption.

 

One can just as easily argue the theme of the Alpha Legion is that it DOESN'T exist....not in the sense of the Iron Hands or Death Guard, as a unified force with an overarching goal.

 

Instead, you've got a hundred thousand plus schemers all weaving their own webs and nobody, not even the Primarch (s) knows what's really going on.

 

In their own way, they're almost as much of a broken Legion as the Night Lords or World Eaters.