Flak Missile Reevaluation

[IK Viper]

When the Flak Missile upgrade first came out with DA's it was generally dismissed as being to expensive for a S7 AP 4 weapon.  At the time most people were looking to these weapons as a way of dealing with Flyers and we all know that a single S7 shot is not that scarry to an AV 11 or 12 vehicle.  Fylers are still a problem and all good generals need to game plan to either play around or deal with flyers for sure, but more and more of the threatening flying targets are FMC's.  Nids for example, can fill the sky with very cheap FMC's.  We all know about the Flying Circus, if not look up this Nick Nadivadie guy... lol   

 

I usually take Missile Launchers on My tactical squads for the utility of the weapon and such a low price point, but I am looking for ways to squize more grounding checks out of my current list.  I have been packing the Flak Rounds on several tactical squads these days, but have not gotten to play many FMC lists rescently.  I suspect that with the ability to force more grounding checks, a few Flak Missile Launchers may help a great deal.  Plus the new hotness for Nids, the Hive Crone, is T5 with 4+ armor so I can reliably wound those guys, 

 

I am wondering if anyone else has tried this and if so what their experiences have been.  I believe that with the proliferation of grounding checks, plus a Quad Gun and 1-2 flyers, grounding FNC's could be alot easier to take out.  Also, this is a quick wargear change that for only a few points can help round out a SM army. 

 

I have also tried paying the 5 points for an extra storm bolter on Rhinos to double the shots I have to force a grounding checks.  This coupled with the single flak missiles seams to be making a big difference in the games I have gotten to use it in. 

 

Maybe we need to start looking at the Flak Missile not as a damamge dealer, but as a grounding tool.  In that context is it worth the extra 10 points?  I think so.

[minigun762]

First thing to come to mind is comparing it to the rest of the squad's shooting.

9 Bolters snap firing is 1.5 hits so you're already forcing a check.

Flakk gets you extra range and a better chance to actually wound the target but I'm still not sure its required.

[Fibonacci]

I take 2 flakk ML and 2 autocannons when I field a havok squad in my CSM army.  That's about it.   My own flyers can put FMC down and the flakk missiles are just there to force a jink save so the opponent's flying vehicles have to snap fire.  So it is kind of similar to how you use yours; more for control and not so much to kill.

[IK Viper]

I always combat squad so I am looking at 4 guys and a Flak ML getting me one check, and the other unit maybe getting another, specially if in double tap. I think it is completely reasonable to get 2 grounding checks out of a Tac. Squad.

 

Your looking at a 15 point investment over my normal build, 10 points for flak, and 5 points for an additional Stormbolter to get you a possible 3 grounding checks. 

 

By getting 2 more shots on t he Rhino your odds are now 2/3 of getting a check vie Snapfire instead of 1/3. All things combined your probably going to force 2 checks between the 3 units conservatively, and the Flak Missile Really helps the range you can throw those checks out.

[minigun762]

I always combat squad so I am looking at 4 guys and a Flak ML getting me one check, and the other unit maybe getting another, specially if in double tap. I think it is completely reasonable to get 2 grounding checks out of that squad.

Combat squad does change the arguement somewhat.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I will say I saw Flakk missiles in the New DA codex and jumped on them. What I found and think of them is that they are a perfect all purpose weapon. Still get my Str 8 for Armor. Get my Skyfire and Frag if I need it. I go cheap four man Dev squad and usually have my Div Libby in the back and it does well enough for me. Ground checks or Locking a Flyer. Even my buddy's hellturkey fears it after two turns. Admittedly don't play in a massively competitive environment but they do awesome for me. One unit that can be effective or moderately effective every turn is awesome.

 

DoC

[minigun762]

I actually like them with IF CT. Adding tank hunter gives your S7 alot more punch even against a Heldrake.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I actually like them with IF CT. Adding tank hunter gives your S7 alot more punch even against a Heldrake.

 

This is the only way I'd use them.  S7 is just too weak against AV12 to guarantee damage, so you either need a contributing USR (Armorbane or Tank Hunter), or numbers (which is why quad guns are even remotely useful against Drakes or Ravens).

[Axagoras]

yea imperial fists got some game since its burly but itd almost better to take 4 lascannons, and a quad gun, sgt mans the quad gun and its 4tl shots with skyceptor and still massive AT punch from the 4 lascannons

[IK Viper]

I think you are looking at Flak Missiles as an Anti-Flyer weapon... its not very good at that, your missing the point.  Flak is pretty good at forcing grouding checks.  Leave the Anti-Flyer to your Stormtalons, Stormravens, and Quad Guns.  What I am advocating is trying these tactical squads with Flak to help you put FMC's on the deck reliably.  Paying 10 extra points a peice on a Dev Squad with 4 ML is a big points investment to only get one grounding check and probably not get any useful results against an AV 12 flyer.  10 points on a Tac Squad that is already using a ML gives that squad yet another way contribute to the game, giving it an Anti-FMC role for not many points.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've got rapid firing bolters to cause grounding checks, though.  You only need hits to cause them, not wounds, so the strength of the attack doesn't matter; just so long as I'm chucking enough dice to make the enemy roll dice.  Then when the FMC's on the ground, I pump it full of plasma and lascannons.  Flak missiles never even have to enter the equation.

[IK Viper]

Yah... bolters have a max effective range of 30 inches though.  My backfield, half of a tactical squad  that sits on objectives can now help all over the board with a 48 inch flak missile.  It's whatever you preffer.  The single BS 4 shot also almost doubles the odds of a 5 man unit getting a hit (single shotting with bolters)   

 

Basically the question comes down to, is it worth 10 points to add that functionality to your tacticals?  I personnaly think it is, specially when facing armies like 5 FMC Nids or 2-3 DP Flying Circus (plus the ever present Fateweaer and Belakor)  you will be hard pressed to spen the 20-30 points better.

[Axagoras]

I cant really say, since I run 3 1 man hyperios air defense batteries and rarely run tac marines... I feel it might be worth it if your running some 4-6 tac squad list and leave 6 flakk missiles in the back field to force grounding tests 1 by 1

[IK Viper]

Well if you can take Hyperios Battaries then Flak is certainly an inferior option.  Now one in my area/ state use Forge World in tournaments though.  I'm looking at what can be done with basic marine lists. 

[Axagoras]

im sorry but not allowing forge world is silly, especially with guard losing 3 artillery pieces that only fw has rules for...

[Gentlemanloser]

Well if you allow FW surely the answer is to ally in some Sabres...

[Captain Idaho]

im sorry but not allowing forge world is silly, especially with guard losing 3 artillery pieces that only fw has rules for...

Each to their own remember.

 

I personally think it's a valid position. Not everyone likes Forge World and many tournaments don't allow it or limit it severely, so people want to learn to play the game using just their Codex.

[Axagoras]

to each their own, yet when your dex loses 1/2 (3/7th now with wyvern) of their field guns but the rules are in a fw book its silly to claim its a valid position. Also around here people have been blessed by the omnissiah and gladly accept his generous gifts of war machines. And on the note of most tournaments limit it severely adepticon, BAO, LVO are all allowing it and are some of the larger ones in the US

 

And back to the topic on hand I feel that as i said earlier a bunch of tac marines with flakk missiles isnt bad but still its a fair amount of points that could be spend on a stalker (hide behind a wall, roll out and split fire at 2 fmcs)