Ravenguard Chapter tactics and Scout bikes

[Tiger9gamer]

So shrieker and I had a discussion that says Strike from the shadow's removes the scout USR from scout bikes. our exchange

 

"The CT makes them lose the benefit of Scout and Stealth if Bulky; they may have it in their base profile, yet lose the benefit of it. Clumsily worded, would have been much clearer to end by 'lose the benefit from strike from the shadows' rather than 'lose the benefit from either rule'. "

 

me: "true, They Can't use Strike from the shadow's, but they do not need it because they already have scout from the  base profile. Since they have scout there, they can still do a scout move wether it's bulky or not.  they do not benefit from either rule from the chapter tactic."

 

 

 

 

So does the scout rule change or does it not?

[AdamR]

I would go with your interpretation.

[Shrieker]

The 'bikes are bulky' rule is in the 6ed FaQ (bikes / jetbikes get Very Bulky - I would link but gw's new 'nothing's free' website doesnt have them anymore. I guess that solves the conundrum :-) .

 

Im not arguing that they lose scout, just saying that they don't get the benefit of it, the way SFTS is phrased, and so wouldnt get their scout move, although they'd keep outflank from infiltrate. Joining a Power Armoured IC with Scout to say, terminators, would confer them Scout, but they would not get the benefit of it, as they are bulky. Same goes for scout bikes, I'd say.

[Fibonacci]

The 'bikes are bulky' rule is in the 6ed FaQ (bikes / jetbikes get Very Bulky - I would link but gw's new 'nothing's free' website doesnt have them anymore.

Again?  Really? 

sigh

Do you mean you can't link this FAQ?

[Morollan]

Badly worded but I'd have say that strictly speaking they do indeed lose Scout.
 

 

 

Strike from the Shadows: Models in this detachment have the Scout special rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in this detachment have the Stealth special rule. Note
that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky special rules do not benefit from either rule.

 

Bikes are models with the Very Bulky special rule. Therefore they do not benefit from either Scout or Stealth.

[AtlasDM]

There is no reason to believe that the wording applies to scout and stealth granted from any other source than Strike From the Shadows. The clause simply intends that bulky models do not gain benefit from that portion of the CT.

[cielaq]

I agree with AtlasDM here.

Strike from the Shadows consist of 3 rules:

1. Models gain Scout

2. Models gain Stealth in first turn.

3. Models with Bulky/Very bulky does not benefit from either rule.

Rule 3 can (and I think should) be read as applying to Rules 1 & 2, not Scout & Stealth.

[Morollan]

Whilst that's probably the intent, it's not what is written.

[cielaq]

Isn't it? :)

I know that "either rule" can be read as refering to Sout/Stelth, but pray tell me why it can't be read as refering to first two rules of Strike from the shadow? :)

[Morollan]

Isn't it?

I know that "either rule" can be read as refering to Sout/Stelth, but pray tell me why it can't be read as refering to first two rules of Strike from the shadow?

Erm..because that's not what it says. It says "Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky special rules do not benefit from either rule" which can only refer to Stealth and Scout. If it said "Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky special rules do not benefit from Strike from the Shadows" I would agree. But it doesn't.

[Axagoras]

bulky models in a ravenguard army do not get the 2 rules from strike from the shadows, but if they have them from another source they can use them...

[cielaq]

Morollan, how can you be sure that "either rule" does not apply to two firs rules of SftS? "Because it's not what it says" it's not an explanation, merely interpretation. Why "it's not what it says"?

[Morollan]

Morollan, how can you be sure that "either rule" does not apply to two firs rules of SftS?

 

What difference does that make anyway? The first two rules of SftS are Stealth and Scout. You still don't get the benefit of them.

[Axagoras]

its absurd to think that because the ravenguard CT rules dont apply to bikes/terminators/ect that they can never use the rule...

[cielaq]

Morollan, again - what they do not benefit from? Scout/Stealth rules, or rules granting Scout/Stealth? There is a huge difference for units already having Scout/Stealth.

[Morollan]

The rule granting Stealth and Scout is SftS. But the 'either rule' referred to within SftS can only refer to Scout and Stealth. I'm sorry, it's really crappy wording but that IS what it says. I wouldn't play it that way but if someone chose to they would have the rules on their side.

[Dam13n]

we have a pretty clear RAI consensus at least.

 

It's a badly worded rule, so although RAW can easily be interpreted to mean that scout bikes lose the scout USR, that can't be what was intended.

 

Unless anybody has any new information that actually adds to this discussion, I'd suggest that this thread should be allowed to lie.

 

Any repetitive arguments that continue this circular discussion may prompt me to warm up the melta.

 

D.

[Nusquam]

I guess the real question is would anyone force a Raven Guard, who have some of the scoutiest scouts to ever scout, player to not use scout on their scout bikes?

 

I'll take a stab at a resounding "No."

[GreyCrow]

It would be absurdly stupid to force a player to lose the scout usr scout bikers have, because it is clearly not the rule as intended.

 

If I was to play against such a guy, I think the Codex: Astartes recommends a swift application of a slap to the face.