Blood Reaver - how does it work? any good in ZM?

[thebymster]

It looks like we're about to enjoy a 2nd flare up of Zone Mortalis in my "club." last time I did so well using fragiosos and DCo. Dreads, but now one guy has splashed out on actual fw boards and there are so many doorways a dread can't fit through so I been rethinking my list and looking at HQs when I came across Seth as an option. Never played him before, I usually Go for a jumpy army. He looks like the sort of guy I'd like to have with a tac squad or sternguard unit with corbulo or some one. But I don't get how this Ferocious Instincts works in 6th Ed? If Gabe and a squad are in combat with a whole bunch of, say, orks - when it gets to their initiative step how do you know how many green skin attacks are against the Capter Master? Are ALL 1's worthy of a good kicking? Just from the models in b2b contact? Or all the ones the owning player decides are attackimg? Because nowadays the saves he (Seth) would have to take against attacks are so convoluted and could even be chosen by the dice if he chooses "look out sir!"

I scanned the FAQ and could find nothing helpful- surprise. This should probably be posted in another, rule based, thread / sector but I wanna know how BA players deal with it please?

[Plague Angel]

Whichever orks where he's the closest model to them.

[thebymster]

So just roll the attacks from a single b2b enemy separately / different colour dice!?! That seems a bit lame!

So if he's caught in the middle of the friendly unit, he don't get the head but in on ANY attack from the enemy?

[Leonaides]

Nope...

[thebymster]

So, worth the points? Despite the "not as good as it could be" rule, I mean. Esp in close quarters and fragile structures of ZM.

[Demoulius]

He has a S8 close combat weapon with rending. He has 1 wound more then a normal captain and the model itself is bad ass. Id say hes worth it :D

That said you might have some issues getting past armour if you dont rend your opponent doesent roll a 1 on a 2+ armour save

[Plague Angel]

So just roll the attacks from a single b2b enemy separately / different colour dice!?! That seems a bit lame!

So if he's caught in the middle of the friendly unit, he don't get the head but in on ANY attack from the enemy?

 

I think that's appropriate, honestly. If there's a friendly Flesh Tearer marine in between Gabe and the ork, I think saying Gabe is in "base contact" with the ork was a weakness of 5th anyways.

[thebymster]

Y'see, as someone who came to this a bit late, when I read: "For every roll of a '1' to hit Seth in CC, enemy units immediately suffer an automatic S4 hit..."

It doesn't mention b2b there.

And in rule book, P63: "A character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of a unit... Attacks are made and wounds allocated just as with normal assaults - the character cannot be singled out... " And, " their place is at the fore front.

There is nothing in rule book about allocating Rolls To Hit against particular models, (except for challenges, obvs) but there is plenty about allocating the subsequent wounds generated! So working backwards from where wounds are allocated would surely decide where the hits have come from? (if Gabe is at the front, taking all the wounds, ALL the rolls to hit must, surely, be against him! Therefore ANY 1 to hit against the unit gets a smack in the chops!?! (unless Gabe is in a challenge, obvs.)

[Plague Angel]

In 5th edition, when the BA codex came out, attacks were allocated against either the character or the unit, so there was no ambiguity then.

 

Having to roll so many attacks one by one because of different saves is a weakness of 6th, though. Hopefully we get something in between next time. But yes, I read it the way you do in that last post. You just wind up having to roll attacks individually if there's intervening models to see if they die first, though.

 

Let me try and come up with a chart.

[Xenith]

When combat begins, nominate Seth as the model you will be taking the armour sAves on. Opponent rolls to hit, gets hit back for each one they roll, then he rolls to wound, then you get to look out, sir!.

[Plague Angel]

http://i60.tinypic.com/2nqf8yq.png

 

Alright, so, green circles are orks, red circles are Tearers, black circle is Seth.

 

Right away, Ork 4 is definitely attacking Seth, while Ork 7 definitely isn't. Orks 2, 3, 5 and 6, though, could potentially attack Seth once Tearers 1, 5, and 7 are dead. In that case, those orks will have to roll their attacks one by one (if I were the ork player, I'd roll Ork 7's attacks first to try to kill Tearer 7 right away, increasing the odds of killing 5) to see whether they kill off the intervening models.

 

For example, if Ork 2 has three attacks, and kills Tearer 1 on his first blow, his next attack is against Seth.

 

As another complication, let's say Ork 5 kills Tearer 5, Ork 3 is now an equal distance from Tearer 1 and Seth, so now the Tearers player decides who is taking the wound. For totally legal shenanigans, you could say that Ork 3 is attacking Seth, punish Ork 3 for his misses, and then Look Out Sir his hits right back onto Tearer 1 anyways.

 

It's not very elegant, but at least it doesn't come up very often.

 

Ignore all of this; mea culpa

[thebymster]

Plague, an excellent diagram and brilliantly explained. However, I can't find what this is based on in rule book? I hate to ask this but are you still mourning 5th Ed? All attacks a're rolled at initiative step, against the opposing unit as a whole (Majority T & WS) wounds are allocated to the nearest models first, where there are several to choose from The controlling player chooses! So I'm with Xenith on this one.

Just to avoid table side arguments I shall issue a challenge at every opp!

[Demoulius]

To avoid this at all, charge Seth in on his own. He gets surrounded+whirlwind of gore=alot of dead orks :P

[thebymster]

Ok. Now let's suppose he's surrounded by nids or Eldar or ultra marines...

[Plague Angel]

You made me second guess myself enough to go back and check the rules. While wound allocation is still working the way I described it, attack rolls to hit is something I was totally wrong about. So I was only half-wrong, but I was wrong about the very question I was trying to answer, so the failure is total. Oops.

 

Re-reviewing it, if Seth and Tearers count as one massed unit, it seems like every roll to hit the unit that comes up 1 gets punished by Seth. Much less clumsy than I thought, and more powerful to boot, if Tearer 7 vs Ork 7 there function under the same rules.

[Demoulius]

@thebymster: Everything gets an AS against his attacks as his weapon has no AP value. Tbh this isent so much of an issue imho. You either have an poweraxe (or special character that has AP2 in some) and hit at initiative 1 OR have a powersword/something simular to strike at initiative but then have AP3 at best and pretty much have the same problem.....

 

Only difference really lies if you want to kill basic MEQ troops with Seth or not. Others can do that better but I think Seth shines in other areas.

 

I think Seth is highly underrated though as he wounds most things (even basic troops) on a 2+. Sure they get saves but against HQ's chances are very high that they get either a 2+ AS or an invul save anyway (at my local club anyway). Against any MEQ 1 failed save equals instant death so imho Seth is far from bad :) hes also quite cheap for a special character!

[thebymster]

... attack rolls to hit is something I was totally wrong about. So I was only half-wrong, but I was wrong about the very question I was trying to answer, so the failure is total. Oops.

 

Lol! Love your crossing out too!

I'm just trying to figure it out so I can take a proxy (Ragnar Blackmane I guess) to table On Sun.

Given how many people have strong opinions round these parts I was expecting a bit more expression of such on the topic. Can't believe there no FAQ About it either!

[knife&fork]

Probably has to do with Seth not being very popular.

 

Excellent work summarizing the rules though. I don't think there's any doubt on how it works in 6th.

[thebymster]

Thanks K&F, praise in deed!

Why is he so unpopular then, no jump pack?

[knife&fork]

Yeah, I bet it's a delivery question. 

 

Rhinos and razorbacks are kinda wasted on assault units, land raiders aren't very popular and it's dangerous to put things not Mephiston in flyers. 

[thebymster]

....Drop pods got limited space and no charge abilities.

I wonder if we'll get a new assault vehicle, what with all our buddies on Mars, next dex? Ooops, wrong thread!

Well, I'm probably gonna give Gabe a try in The Zone 2moz then, but just recovered my Ork dex and remember the fun of all those burnas and skorchas in The Zone....

[CaptainHelion]

Yeah, it's always a delivery issue for Seth. The most success I've had with him is popping him in a pod with bolter DC, and making sure he gets put at the back of the group so they can tank for him. I'd imagine he'd be better running out of a LR, but I've yet to use one.