Departmento Munitorum: 5th-6th Edition Changes

[Kierdale]

For discussion of the changes that have occurred to units. What can we now expect from our forces?

What units will come to the fore? Why? How will you use them?

 

Please use discretion, people (no specific points values, etc.).

[Sir Blayse]

I will just say my army has changed a lot.  I play Catachan guard.  I missing a very famous Catachan from my force now.  I'm hoping we get a supplement with him in it.  

 

Otherwise, a lot of things seem to have been balanced or better defined.  Vets have seen some changes, but like marines are a bit cheaper.  I really do like some of the new equipment for vehicles.  Plus, the new commander option is really cool, just too bad we did not see the same for troops.  Notice a loss of a whole troop choice from the entire codex.  I never used them, but not even an option now.  

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

No need to be so cryptic sur, I think it's permissible to name names just don't give point values. I assume when you say a whole troops choice is gone this is Penal Legion? This makes me sad. They've been a mainstay in my lists fir years now. Not the most effective but usually quite fun.

 

What's the deal with commanders?

[FlamingDeth]

If penal legionnaires are gone I may have to suplex a game designer. Attaching a telepathy primaris to one and outflanking him is one of the simple joys of life.

[march10k]

lol

[hendrik]

here's a quick summary of what big changes have happened:

HQ's:

 

-company command squad went up 10 pts without getting any upgrades for it. some nice warlord traits though, 1 resembling creeds old ability to outflank some units.

-tank command upgrade makes 1 tank a HQ tank. the tank dedicated orders are pretty "meh" IMO. this upgrade costs 3 times as much as the upgrade cost you pay for an armoured battalion command tank...I  still formly believe the armoured battalion list will be better.

-primaris psychers became cheaper and do not take up a force org slot

-conscripts lost tchenkov...

-veterans; still 3 special weapons (fixed)

-no more penal legion.

-ogryns still as expensive as they were.don't think they've made them really a viable option.

-bullgryns, even more expensive, but good at providing cover for your tanks, at a very steep price though.

-Storm trooper/militarum tempestus platoons pretty "meh" IMO

-scout sentinels: cheaper weapon upgrades. I expect the outflanking lascannon to be popular.

-armoured sentinels: lost the EA, but became much cheaper now! can't wait to test these out. Also, with the 1/6 chance for the outflank warlord trait i see these becoming more popular than scout sentinels.Finally, since they are superb models!

-valkyries and vendettas, the one became cheaper, the other more expensive. sponsons became more expensive too.

-leman russes: became signifanctly cheaper! especially the vanquisher, punisher, exterminator,eradicator,executioner,and punisher! heavy bolter sponsons went up in price though. unfortunatly no special ammo though as seen in the armoured battalion armylist though.

-hydras: still no interceptor...

-no more medusas, griffons or colossus. a real shame! hopefully forgeworld soon puts out a FAQ where they make all the tanks available in IA V1,2nd edition available to the astra militarum list

-wyvern, meh

-manticore became more expensive.

 

I'm actually not that impressed by the new codex, sure they have fixed some units (armoured sentinels), but left others completly unscratched (ogryns, rough riders) or didn't even bother including them anymore, which is kind of saddening. It also doesn't seem to contain that much fluff.

anyway, i'm curious to see how it will fare in battle. Expect a lot of players to use less artillery and more leman russes!

[RolandTHTG]

Veterans may still take 3 special if they don't take the Heavy Flamer.
Bodyguards are gone except for Kell and Nork.

Astropaths are LD7, so I'm not to impressed with them getting telepathy.

Vox no longer allows rerolls when issuing orders to the officer's own unit.
Orders can now be in any order, no longer have to use all your company command squads first.

For Tanith players, I'll just point out that the new guard relic powersword has the exact same stats as Guant's Sword of Heironymo

[hendrik]

after having a bit more time with it, does anyone else hate having to always flip back to the armoury to see the price cost for some special weapons and heavy weapons while half of the time they did add in lines like "may carry a platoon standard....X points"?

Why only do half the work GW?

[Andhil]

I've hated having to flip back to that page since they started with it. Really annoying, I absolutely preffered the 5th ed. way. Just tell me what I can get, and how many pts it'll cost me.

I've half a mind to photocopy that page for quick reference, because I'm too lazy to memorize that single page.

This is really important to my Regiment so: What's the news on Deathstrikes?

[march10k]

CHEAPER leman russes?  Really?  ~drool~.  

 

 

-valkyries and vendettas, the one became cheaper, the other more expensive. sponsons became more expensive too.

 

I'm confused...I assume this means that vendettas got more expensive and valkyries cheaper, but valkyries are 25 points more expensive in C:MT than in the old IG codex...huh? I can imagine them being cheaper in C:AM than in C:MT for a number of reasons, but cheaper than C:IG???  That's...mind-blowing.  I was going to ally in my stormtroopers for a number of reasons, but this sounds like they'd be hundreds of points cheaper, just in valkyrie costs, if I take them organically instead?  (Naturally, I'd miss out on the "air assault formation" special rules, but hundreds of points is a lot of extra bodies!)

[RowRow]

Never used Deathstrikes, but they seem a lot more useful now. Seems easier to actually fire them as you need a 4 on the dice and not a 6, so I'd be more inclined to try them out.

 

My question is probably silly and a bit hopeful, reading up on the Wyrdvane Psykers entry it says they generate their "powers" from the various disciplines. However by my reading they should only have one power, if this is the case I'm not really sure of their usefulness over a primaris psyker or two. I do realise them somehow having more than one power is maybe a bit hopeful on my behalf, but a boy can dream. Can anyone tell me which way it is?

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I downloaded the iBooks interactive version today. I have to say, if you have an iPad it's really worth it because then you have popup windows for all the wargear so you don't have to flip back to the armoury to see prices ... just touch your finger to the option.

My first impression is that, on the whole, I'm underwhelmed. I was hoping for something that would spice the guard up a bit more like a Guard equivalent of "Chapter tactics" but it seems to me that we've actually had more taken away than we've been given with this codex. I'm not going to go all Chaos Marine player on you guys and complain beyond that, but that's just my first impression.

Rough Riders, being of especial interest to me, actually went UP in price by one point I believe (although I don't have my 5th Ed. codex with me to confirm). They do have a CCW + Laspistol though, so once they've used their lances up they're slightly better at hand-to-hand than they used to be (for whatever that's worth -- I don't see a glass hammer like rough riders doing anything after that initial charge).

The HQ sections has TONS of option now, which is great. I really like what they've done with the HQ on the whole. Yes the HQ tank is more expensive than an armoured company HQ, BUT, Vanquishers are now 20 points cheaper and hull lascannons 5 points cheaper so if you go with that loadout it balances out, plus you have the split-fire order.

The troops section is what disappointed me the most. The only options now are platoons and veterans. Granted that's only one choice fewer than we had before, but I would have liked to see more options or at least the same. Maybe give us armoured fist squads back or something. To fulfill your minimum two troop choices your only options are two platoons, two vets, or a platoon and vets All they really did was tinker with the points costs a bit. I think the price reduction for grenadiers doctrine on veterans was most welcome. Not sure the vets themeselves needed a reduction ... I guess this mitigates the lack of options somewhat but I fear this will mean people bringing EVEN MORE veterans. My chimeltavet spam theory on chimera price increase is out the window since the reduction in veteran price cancels out the chimera increase (other than the reduction in fire points I suppose).

So, a quick summary:

PROS:

Lots of interesting/fun options in the HQ slot

Great warlord traits

Potentially very interesting relics (and lots of them)

Munitorum priests with zeal and battle hymns for same price as Codex Adepta Sororitas, C:=][=

Cheaper vets

Nothing really got worse

Vendettas now appropriately priced

Scion platoons

CONS:

No eviscerators for Munitorum priests

Fewer options for troop choices - no penal legionnaires

Marginal units have not been improved -- i.e. rough riders, ogryn, ratlings

Across-the-board price increase for melee weapons (which makes no sense considering how assault has been nerfed in 6th)

Lost some artillery options

There's just enough cool stuff, and regular IG is so much cheaper than DKoK, that I am in a quandary for Astronomi-con whether to switch to Codex: Astra Militarum or stay the course with DKoK. I was hoping there would be something in C:AM that would blow my socks off to make the choice easier.

@march10k: I don't have the Codex: Militarum Tempestus, so I don't know how much a Valkyrie costs in there, but in C:AM it costs 125 points (I'm hoping it's kosher to post that, since if one posted an army list for critique and had a "naked" Valkyrie in there, that's how it would show up). Also, they are a fast attack choice, whereas in C:MT they are a dedicated transport, no?

@RowRow - well, it says they're Brotherhood of Psykers (Mastery Level 1) so even though it says "powers" it appears they actually only have one. I'm not sure what the benefit to running them instead of a Primaris is, either, other than they're less susceptable to Perils of the Warp. I never used Psyker Battle Squads, but it's another disappointment to me that there are no codex-specific psychic powers anymore.

[hendrik]

CHEAPER leman russes?  Really?  ~drool~.  

 

 

-valkyries and vendettas, the one became cheaper, the other more expensive. sponsons became more expensive too.

 

I'm confused...I assume this means that vendettas got more expensive and valkyries cheaper, but valkyries are 25 points more expensive in C:MT than in the old IG codex...huh? I can imagine them being cheaper in C:AM than in C:MT for a number of reasons, but cheaper than C:IG???  That's...mind-blowing.  I was going to ally in my stormtroopers for a number of reasons, but this sounds like they'd be hundreds of points cheaper, just in valkyrie costs, if I take them organically instead?  (Naturally, I'd miss out on the "air assault formation" special rules, but hundreds of points is a lot of extra bodies!)

Sorry, an error on my part since i always used the vendetta anyway. a valk is now 5 pts cheaper then what a vendetta used to cost while the vendetta costs what a current leman russ + MM sponsons costs.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

P.S. Not all Leman Russes are cheaper. The standard Battle Tank is the same but Vanquishers are 20 points cheaper (25 pts cheaper if you take into account the cheaper hull lascannon) , as are Exterminators. Punisher is a lot cheaper (10 pts less than a regular Russ now), Eradicator is 30 pts less than a regular Russ. So I would say they made the variants much more viable.

Sponsons are cheaper, too, as is the hull lascannon. The changes in the Russ entry definitely make the tread-head in me happy.

[RowRow]

Cheers Nicodemus, time to paint up those old Primaris Psyker's I've got in the drawer methinks.

[Kierdale]

No more shotguns for priests, you say?

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!!!

Also no more eviscerators, which really disappoints as I hoped to make a priest with one next.

Other changes I noted:

Cons

Lost CCS bodyguards
Regimental advisors must choose CCW or laspistol
Regimental advisors lost combat gear options (carapace armour, etc.)
Fleet officer must test to use his abilities
SWS: take a demo charge and lose your lasgun
Priests: lost shotgun and eviscerator
Harker: lost stealth and infiltrate

Pros
SWS grenades
Potential for massed psykers (lots of Div, though low Ld)
Fleet officer gained the astropath’s ability
Astropath became a genuine psyker
Priest: plasma gun option
Camo cloaks renamed camo `gear` (a small point but I really like it)
Harker: relentless now does confer to his squad. But what heavy weapon to give them?
Ratlings: shoot sharp and scarper. Sneaky sneaky!
Camo netting: cheaper and not restricted by movement. Better than enclosed cabin?
LR Executioner gained Gets Hot on the turret cannon
Lost three artillery pieces
Lost ability to mix artillery within one squadron
Deathstrike became easier to launch

Enginseers can grant PotMS

???

Conscripts: they get frags or not. The unit explanations section says no, the army list at the back says yes. I'm guessing no.
Manticore’s missiles are noted as not being able to be fired directly. So why bother with a minimum range?

[Andhil]

Never used Deathstrikes, but they seem a lot more useful now. Seems easier to actually fire them as you need a 4 on the dice and not a 6, so I'd be more inclined to try them out.

Hmm...Firing faster. That'll certainly help.

They didn't get any cheaper by any chance, or any stat changes?

Ugh, now I'm kinda bummed out that the Codex I ordered is gonna arrive a week late.

Here's to hoping they at least ordered the Limited Ed like I asked.

[RolandTHTG]

@ kieradle - Relentless doesn't confer to the squad

Also, you know who that load out is still legal for? A Chaos Cultist Champion!

Come to the dark side!

[march10k]

Simple.   "They" is plural.  Hence, "powers" must be plural also.  Each one gets one power.

[march10k]

Hmmm...cheap vanquishers is nice...too bad they're BS3....and 70 points for pask??? That's 40 extra points just to get crack shot!

[Retaliation]

Hmmm...cheap vanquishers is nice...too bad they're BS3....and 70 points for pask??? That's 40 extra points just to get crack shot!

 

You might have a point if that was all he did. Good summary of everything in the codex here.

 

 

 

• Crack Shot: Shots made by Pask's Leman Russ may re-roll armour penetration rolls against vehicles (to include glancing or penetrating hits, but the second result must be kept), furthermore the turret-mounted weapon on Pask's vehicle gains an additional benefit based on it's type:
  • Battle Cannon, Vanquisher Battle Cannon, Demolisher Siege Cannon, Eradicator Nova Cannon: Re-roll to hit
  • Exterminator Autocannon, Punisher Gatling Gun: Rending
  • Executioner Plasma Cannon: Gains alternate firing profile: 36", S7, AP2, Heavy 1, Large Blast, Blind, Get's Hot

[Andhil]

Actually, I have a question:

 

Can the Scions, and Scion Command squads, take Chimera's as DT?

[hendrik]

Actually, I have a question:

 

Can the Scions, and Scion Command squads, take Chimera's as DT?

yes!

 speaking of scions. is someone else annoyed too that they didn't even bother painting some scoins into the standard guard colours they used in the dex? all this babyblue mixed in with the cadians just looks off!

[Cap'm Heckus]

Brotherhood of Psykers, per the main rule book:  A unit with this special rule counts as a Mastery level 1 Psyker.  Whole squad gets one power. 

 

add:  i do like the idea of dropping a primaris pysker into the wyrdvane squad.  Give them Prescience and him other stuff.  Could be fun.

[Targetlock]

hi forum

 

from what i've heard it really is a mixed bag and my traitor guard is going through some changes (loss of penal legion :( mogul kamir and several fun special characters) and new stuff (improved priests but loss of eviscerator :( but tank commander sounds cool, like the scion platoon ideas, various units getting cheaper, fun relics and orders, new wyvern sounds nice ) shame the new bullgryns aren't cheaper points-wise because both options sounds like fun.