Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 So, thinking of doing something like this; Justicar, 4 x Purgators w/psycannons + Terminator Inquisitor w/hammer+psycannon, Prescience + Bone'ead, 9 x Bullgryns w/slab shield+grenadier gauntlet Terminator Inquisitor joins the Bullgryns, giving them Ld10, plus he can shoot his gun as well, and his hammer helps with taking out annoying MC's, characters or 2+ save infantry trying to bog them down. Purgators hide behind the wall of abhumans and shoot through them using 'Astral Aim', getting re-rolls from 'Prescience' on the Inquisitor. Purgators will also have a 3+ cover save, due to slab shield bonus and the 4+ cover they get from being behind another unit. Further additions would be adding Coteaz to the Purgators to get 'Perfect Timing' (thus removing the irritation of 'Astral Aims' 4+ cover save to the enemy), and a Priest with the Bullgryns for 'Hatred' and war hymns. Kinda jank, but I wanna try this out. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Perfect Timing is one of the psychic powers on the Divinations table, giving you a 1/6 chance of getting the one you want. Fortunately prescience is the primaris power and Coteaz has PML2 so if you miss you can try again, giving you 30.5% of getting Perfect Timing and thus not making the Purgation squad half as effective as they would have been. That leaves 69.5% of the time that your combo performs under par and once again proves why random psychic powers are just as useful as randomizing weapons. TL;DR Don't create a combo that wont work most of the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3651189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 13, 2014 Author Share Posted April 13, 2014 Perfect Timing is one of the psychic powers on the Divinations table, giving you a 1/6 chance of getting the one you want. Fortunately prescience is the primaris power and Coteaz has PML2 so if you miss you can try again, giving you 30.5% of getting Perfect Timing and thus not making the Purgation squad half as effective as they would have been. That leaves 69.5% of the time that your combo performs under par and once again proves why random psychic powers are just as useful as randomizing weapons. TL;DR Don't create a combo that wont work most of the time. Obviously I don't take just one Divination psyker. I have Coteaz and a TDA Inquisitor at minimum. I'd also be taking the three Primaris psykers from IG, which I can upgrade too if need be to Mastery 2. It's not that hard to roll the power you want with DIvination, you only need two Mastery 2's or a 3-4 Mastery 1's. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3651212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 51.77% chance when rolling for it four times, that can be either four PML1, two PML2 or a mix as they're all effectively rerolls. (3 rolls is 42.13% which can be two PML1 & one PML2 or three PML1) That's a lot of points to spend to (probably) ensure that you make the most out of one unit, I'm guessing as I don't have C:IG. and where are the preists coming from? Is C:AS in there somewhere too? I admire your effort to rekindle the usefulness of purgation squads, but they're in the same slot as dreadknights, dreadnoughts and landraiders which makes it a no brainer when purifiers can do it just as good. If Perfect Timing is to negate the cover save from shooting through a unit, then why are purgation squads even needed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3651319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 13, 2014 Author Share Posted April 13, 2014 51.77% chance when rolling for it four times, that can be either four PML1, two PML2 or a mix as they're all effectively rerolls. (3 rolls is 42.13% which can be two PML1 & one PML2 or three PML1) Meh. I've rolled it enough times off just two Divination psykers. Anyway, even if I don't roll it, I'm bound to roll the other powers, and I'm always swapping the least useful for 'Prescience' anyway. You can never have enough re-rolls. That's a lot of points to spend to (probably) ensure that you make the most out of one unit, I'm guessing as I don't have C:IG. and where are the preists coming from? Is C:AS in there somewhere too? Priests are in the new IG codex as well. I admire your effort to rekindle the usefulness of purgation squads, but they're in the same slot as dreadknights, dreadnoughts and landraiders which makes it a no brainer when purifiers can do it just as good. If Perfect Timing is to negate the cover save from shooting through a unit, then why are purgation squads even needed? Well partially that, it's also to negate the cover save granted by 'Astral Aim'. I know Purifiers are better (believe me, I'm always telling people to not take Purgators for that exact reason), but I wanted to try something new. I get the feeling I should really just put them in a Henchmen Chimera (yay still has 5 firepoints), using the Bullgryns to grant it a 5+ cover save (3+ if I smoke up). In that scenario Purgators are only ahead by being cheaper, I'd probably just take Purifiers instead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3651351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Caloth Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Actually, with purgation squads you get 4 specials in 5 guys, not 10 like purifiers. For four psycannons for 180 isn't bad Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3655120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 What's the cost of the Bullgryns? I'm assuming it's quite high. It's probably better to ditch them and just take another GK Purgation Squad. More Pew Pew, and more bodies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3655291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share Posted April 18, 2014 45 points per model. Considering thats a T5 3-wound model with a 3+ armour save, that's pretty damn good. Plus they give units behind them +1 to their cover save (which stacks with Stealth). Could be amusing with a GK Libby casting 'Shrouding' on the Purgators as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3656626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Hot damn... 45 points for 3W with a 3+ Save.... Must resist to scream CODEX CREEP. /sigh Oh well, Helldrakes still melt them I suppose. But they don't ID them. If only I didn't hate the minis. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3656857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share Posted April 18, 2014 IG still have Vendettas to rek Helturkeys, so meh. At best the chicken fries a few, then get lascannoned. Bullgryns are pretty problematic for shooting armies. T5 means even Tau have problems with small arms, and if the enemy is wasting S7+ on them it will still take time. Add on codex and ally access to Biomancy+Divination...Guard players have a lot of toys to play with. For us, they're a better front line unit than Termies against Riptides etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3657019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 For us, they're a better front line unit For us? For everyone that can take them. LoL Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3657036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 19, 2014 Author Share Posted April 19, 2014 Well yeah haha but this is the Knight forum, so I was speaking in context. I'm not even going to get into the disgusting combos that Space Marines can get via IG now. War Priests with Terminators...urgh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3657554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Oh hai more rerollable saves. Hmmm. IG are still BB with us aren't they? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3657720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 19, 2014 Author Share Posted April 19, 2014 Nope, always been AoC :( otherwise i'd have priests with our Terminators...oh Throne, that would be glorious. Re-rolling armour AND invul in melee, gaining Hatred.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3657732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 /sigh So with Centurion and Priest + TDA combos, and the best bits from our dex (Inquisition) farmed out to everyone. Why are we playing the GK again? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3657758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 19, 2014 Author Share Posted April 19, 2014 We have the best Marine models? Nah, there is still heaps to love; HQ: - Coteaz (he is whoring himself out these days, but he only gives his special Troops Henchmen love to us, so) - Grandmaster (the Force Org chart and mission types have never been less relevant. Reconfig your list on a whim, amazing, and he's a great Warlord that can fight most things to death in melee, and he still doesn't break 200pts. Not bad) - Librarian (Bullgryn bonus + Shrouding could be interesting, 'Might' is amazing, 'Quicksilver' is amazing) - Inquisitors Elite: - Purifiers (the best Marine squad in 40k, no competition. They make Terminators look underpowered. Still, Riptides exist...sigh) - Vindicare (the ruiner of dreams) Troops: - Terminators (still awesome, even these days, and unlike other Terminators we shoot hard and still hit like trucks in melee, either at I6 or with hammers) - Strikes (still better than most Marine squads, outshined by Purifiers, but innate Derpstrike and Warp Quake keep them relevant) - Henchmen (they make other armies Troops look like garbage, amazing unit, plus cheap mech is still a thing for us) Fast Attack: - Ravens (Vendettas are not only a power fist shy of their price tag, so they're definitely competitive, plus they do everything we wish Land Raiders could do. Xenos would KILL for an assault gunship this good, Eldar in particular be jelly) - Interceptors (still annoying, still effective) Heavy Support: - Dreadknight (ender of dreams, nightmare of Tau) - PsyDreads (underdogs to be sure, but they're still giving a good show) Heaps of things to still love man ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3657772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 And now remove the stuff that the other Marines can cover. Like slightly less potent Atuodreads, Ravens, Libbies, Inquisitors. We're really starting to look dated. :( /sob Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3657788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 20, 2014 Author Share Posted April 20, 2014 And now remove the stuff that the other Marines can cover. Like slightly less potent Atuodreads, Ravens, Libbies, Inquisitors. We're really starting to look dated. /sob I wouldn't be that despondent. We're still better than Dark Angels, who are as always relegated as the test-bed Marine codex for the general-issue Ultramarine book. Our Ravens are fine. Psi-strike missiles are if anything better than the boring ordnance missiles on other Ravens, as they deal with ScreamerStar and other annoying psykers in a way few others can (good old Perils, no saves and auto-wound). PsyDreads still bring Reinforced Aegis as well as being S8 ranged attacks. Our Librarian has tricks lesser Librarians can't match, and our Inquisitors = more buffing. (shrug) We're just mainly in the world of pain because of stupid stuff like Riptides and Heldrakes. If such things didn't exist, or were less OP/spammable, we'd be fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3658526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Just the question, with so many ignore cover weapons and assuming your opponent has some sort of brain, why you think he would not direct attacks against purgators ignoring Bullgrims. Either with ignore cover shots, or managing to position the way to ignore +1 cover from the meat shields. On the other hand I am afraid 4+ cover from the astral aim is there no matter what as I do understand it from the dex. Moreover inst dangels combo much cheaper, making 4++ for everyone, specially marching purgators behind the 4++ LRs filled with 12p henchies (completely blocking LoS). Not sure about Bullgrims, as some armies are just to made to take them out... JAWS, all the poison shots moreover bearing at mind 3+ is nothing nowadays. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3675175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Ignoring the bullgryns and shooting directly at the purgators would confer a cover save for the purgators should they need. The unit shooting would probably already be in charge range if they were that close too. One sure way to remove the cover save is to use LotD as all their shots have ignors cover. But they also have a 3++ save which is more than they get from the cover save so the bullgryns would really just be preventing anything from charging them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3675547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted May 5, 2014 Author Share Posted May 5, 2014 Just the question, with so many ignore cover weapons and assuming your opponent has some sort of brain, why you think he would not direct attacks against purgators ignoring Bullgrims. Either with ignore cover shots, or managing to position the way to ignore +1 cover from the meat shields. On the other hand I am afraid 4+ cover from the astral aim is there no matter what as I do understand it from the dex. If he ignores the Bullgryns, they roll into his frontline and proceed to eat everything they touch. They're probably more of a threat than the Purgators in many ways. 'Astral Aim' grants a 4+ cover save to the enemy unit that can't be modified. 'Perfect Timing' doesn't modify cover saves, it grants the 'Ignore Cover' special rule to the units shooting attacks until your next turn. Therefore, the enemy unit gets its 4+ cover save from 'Astral Aim, but then you ignore it due to having the 'Ignore Cover' special rule as well. Same reason why incinerators don't care about 'Astral Aims' drawback, and why they're the more popular choice on Purgators. Moreover inst dangels combo much cheaper, making 4++ for everyone, specially marching purgators behind the 4++ LRs filled with 12p henchies (completely blocking LoS). The PFG gives the 4+ invul to enemy units as well, so once melee hits, you're giving them a powerful save against our force weapons. Not a good plan. Also, Landraiders are a very bad idea in 6th, 4+ invul or not. Not sure about Bullgrims, as some armies are just to made to take them out... JAWS, all the poison shots moreover bearing at mind 3+ is nothing nowadays. Most Space Puppies don't even use their own powers anymore, their Rune Priests are too busy spamming Divination powers. Poison shots against Bullgryns have the same effect as S5 shooting; they wound about half the time, but they still allow armour saves. Bullgryns have 3 wounds apiece, so unlike Terminators or Bikers, they can fail saves multiple times and still only lose 1-2 models. DE are total garbage in 6th anyway, they die way too fast. One sure way to remove the cover save is to use LotD as all their shots have ignors cover. But they also have a 3++ save which is more than they get from the cover save so the bullgryns would really just be preventing anything from charging them. I'm not worried about LotD. People wanna take overpriced non-scoring Marines, that's their choice. The more solid-hard counter to my idea is (as always), Divination psykers, markerlights, Heldrakes and Riptides. Which is why as I said, this is a jank combo, I would never take it do a competitive game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289460-new-combo-bullgryns-and-purgators/#findComment-3675963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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