Tactics against Astra Militarum

[ianj253]

So with the new guard, aka astra militarum, codex hitting the scene I thought It might be a good idea to make a thread discussing tactics when facing them. Personally, I'm glad there is so much excitement regarding the new Dex, and hope to see them a lot on the table top. One of the reasons being that blood angels have all the tools to deal with them! 

 

A lot of the talk seems to be focused on resurgence of the Russ (including the Pask Punisher combo), the strength of the new HQ section, and the orders.  While the Russ may scare Eldar and Tau armies that spam str 6/7, I think we all know BA are readily equipped to deal with them.  

 

As far as the orders and Force multiplying HQ's go, I feel we are a little worse off. I think the primary strategy when facing IG will be similar to dealing with tau marker lights. These force multipliers must be removed quickly and in doing so the army becomes much weaker.  IMO the best option will be barrage sniping to remove the valuable characters such as Priest, Voxcasters,  psychers that may be hiding in squads. Now the problem is BA are lacking in the barrage department. While we do have whirlwinds, they simply don't hold a candle to the Thunderfire. I currently run SM allies, and one of the main reasons is to gain access the TFC.  It's a shame while running BA as a primary we can't get more than one. However, taking an allied TFC and a whirlwind from the BA codex should be enough. 

 

These are just some rough initial thoughts based on my skimming of the new AM dex. If anyone else has anything to add I'm sure we would all appreciate it. 

[Zeller]

Frankly I don't think the tactics to beating guard have changed. Odds are there will be more armor with the tank commander option. That aside their strengths and weaknesses remain the same. The new units cant best BA at their own game (bullgryns and assault for example) but the new overwatch precision shot plus the splitfire orders make for a very devastating gunline both when being assaulted and merely trying to maneuver.

 

Who knows..maybe something as crazy as a storm raven full of melta bomb vanguard vets flying in for a tank bbq fiesta. I havent played in a while and would never actually suggest such a crazy idea . I'd deepstrike 10+ terminators of various kind.

[ianj253]

Orders are only for the shooting phase and the split fire one only allows them to fire 1 weapon at a different target.

[Chaplain Admetus]

Faced 'em last night. Should have a batrep up within the next few days. Early opinions: they really work well with their independent characters as buff units. My opponent had an inquisitor in a unit of 30 conscripts (30 prescienced conscripts are scarier than you'd think), and a priest and sanctioned psyker buffing a blob squad. Outflanking Leman Russes can be a bit of a nuisance (Warlord Trait). I lucked out and rolled Perfect Timing on a librarian who sat with a devastator squad and laid down the hurt - anything that can get past their cover save is useful.

 

I'd actually recommend AGAINST assaulting unless you've really thinned down the opposing unit - the guard get enough bodies and enough access to fearless/stubborn units to bog you down and beat you with attrition. Use LoS blockers, and force them to engage at medium range. Target the heavy weapons first, and force them to try and flashlight you to death.

[ianj253]

Yeah the buffs AM get for so cheap is pretty crazy! That's why I think barrage weapons are so important, so they can be eliminated quickly. Take out the fearless/stubborn granters and clean them up in assault.

[knife&fork]

Seems like our tactics will be a lot like the old days. Just get in their faces where they can't fully utilize their big guns and numerical advantage. Things like priests are way scarier in a sisters force. Who cares about re-rolling a 5+ save?

[Chaplain Admetus]

Priests are scary when it means you have to kill the ENTIRE 30 man blob that's generally in cover of some kind because they're fearless and won't run... Barrage isn't a perfect solution, as they can still Look out Sir the shot on a 2+. I'd recommend avoiding the blobs as they're a bugger of a kill point to pick up, and can only take one objective.

 

I'm glad the fliers got hit with a nerf bat, means we don't need to worry about air-cavalry guard nearly as much. I can't say much for the new mech, as I didn't get to play against much, but I think it'll be a real thing with the innovation of tank commanders.

[knife&fork]

Any guard player stupid enough to blob his units when facing BA will soon learn about that weird weapon called 'frag cannon'...

Fearless or stubborn blobs are nothing new. If anything it makes me happy when they help out by staying put. Saves me the trouble of getting left out in the open at inconvenient times. And if you think guard blobs with prescience are scary you should see a blender dread with rerolls to hit.

I love guardsmen, they are so soft and squishy. Like slow eldar guardians with crap guns.

[Chaplain Admetus]

I frag cannon'ed a platoon command squad instead of aiming for a blob, wanted First Blood and to thin down his Orders pool more than I wanted to dent a fearless mob with flashlights. Possibly a mistake, but I'm not convinced of that.

 

Stormtroopers are still fairly good, my opponent had two units of those (one big 10 man unit with plasma, and a 5 man command unit with triple melta). They both deep-struck and did some damage, the melta squad finished my Baal, and I was VERY lucky with cover saves to keep most of my assault squad alive against the plasma unit. Probably worth playing around units like this, I can see reserve guard armies working very well.

 

That being said, I feel that their best strengths are very definitely in their characters - priests, sanctioned psykers, command platoons (for Orders and the like); everything else is underwhelming and relies on buffs and synergy. Take out the hierarchy and everything else should fall like the proverbial house of cards. No orders, no fearless/stubborn units, no prescience, and the army really doesn't accomplish very much at all.

[knife&fork]

Fragging the command squad probably wasn't a bad idea. It depends on the mission and how many models you can fit under the template. 

 

I think guard have to be really careful about putting units into reserves. Their units are not that strong on their own and have to support each other. Tanks need infantry cover, infantry need support fire from tanks. 

Too many points spent on outflank and deepstrikes will leave them with a weak board presence. A few bad reserve rolls or an untimely DS mishap could spell disaster.

 

I wonder if we'll see some interesting combos using a death strike to influence enemy movement? Not sure if it's a competitive pick but it sure seems like a great way to dissuade things like tau from staying in their deployment zone and march into the range of the entire imperial gunline.  

[Chaplain Admetus]

Yeah. He managed to get scrier's gaze on his primaris psyker, so using the warlord trait to outflank two russes was pretty solid as he was all but guaranteed to get everything where and when he needed it. One unit mishapped when it landed but just went straight back into reserve, so no harm done.

 

I'll need to play a few more games to be sure, but my first impressions are that it's a very solid codex that can do pretty powerful things, but is reliant on synergy to do so as there's no units that are particularly devastating in their own right.

[ianj253]

I'd say fragging the Comman squad was the best choice. Just like eliminating the marker lights first against tau. Did you end up not doing that much damage to the squad? 

[librisrouge]

As an IG player, not a lot has changed besides Priest and psykers, but inquisition already gave half that. Hell, I updated my old lists and almost all of them are too many points now.

 

Bear in mind, while tank commanders are nice they require squadrons. Units with multiple melt as will possibly kill two or three Russ. Attack Bikes like that.

[Leonaides]

Or charge any marine combat squad into that squadron... did that a couple of nites ago with 6dc and a reclusiarch and destroyed 1 tank and left his command tank on 1hp. I used krak grenades because he had rear armour 11 and was unlucky with the 2 pen hits to only roll 1's to damage it. The other russ was glanced to death...

[knife&fork]

You're going to need a bit more on average than 5 marines to kill a squad of russes with krak grenades. They are almost guaranteed to alphastrike you when they outflank, that can hurt quite a bit.

 

Pask in a punisher alone can wipe out entire marine units. 

[Leonaides]

Well, his executioner had just wiped out 9 wolf guard in power armour and logan...

[librisrouge]

Which it could easily have done before.

[knife&fork]

Which it could easily have done before.

 

But now it can be done in the HQ slot and for a lot less points.

[Cronhour]

Or charge any marine combat squad into that squadron... did that a couple of nites ago with 6dc and a reclusiarch and destroyed 1 tank and left his command tank on 1hp. I used krak grenades because he had rear armour 11 and was unlucky with the 2 pen hits to only roll 1's to damage it. The other russ was glanced to death...

don't you only get 1 attack per model with krak grenades? If so would you not be better just using normal attacks with deathcompany? with FC your str 5 on the charge  so thats 4 (if bolter equipped) 5 if not str5 attacks I would have thought the extra attacks of glancing on 6's versus the smaller number wth nades glancing on fives and penning on sixes, was more likly to take the squadren out, plus you had the reclusiarchs at str 7 on the charge with jis crozious for pens.

[Xenith]

plus you had the reclusiarchs at str 7 on the charge with jis crozious for pens.

Chaplains are not members of the death company and as such do not get Furious Charge unless you have a priest nearby. They are S6.

[Cronhour]

 

plus you had the reclusiarchs at str 7 on the charge with jis crozious for pens.

Chaplains are not members of the death company and as such do not get Furious Charge unless you have a priest nearby. They are S6.

Thanks for the reminder yet my point still stands, surely the 5 str 6 attacks at ap4 are better than 1 str 6 ap3 attack on the tanks?

[Leonaides]

Sorry i thought that bit was obvious... whether the grenades or the normal attacks were best equally doesnt matter in this case. It still did the job and a normal assault squad could have done it too.

[Jolemai]

Would any use their Death Company Dreadnought and/or Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons against this force? The psychological affects alone could be worth it.

[knife&fork]

Yup, a blender dread (preferably a DC dread with a prescience buff) next to a guard blob will attract all the firepower he has.

[SnorriSnorrison]

I think against guard our tactics differ only so slightly as in that we chop both the shooty and the "choppy" stuff. Except for vendettas/valkyries, I'd say. Talon DC Dreads, DC from pods(choppy!), assault squads and vanguard vets are really good against guard. In my opinion, guard suffer a lot when you're podding flamer-toting squads/units that can mop up the burn-victims next round. Key is to eliminate multiple targets that might drop devastating 5" pie plates o' doom , therefore Vanguard Vets with meltabombs are really a good idea IMHO.

 

Also, Stormraven. Good against Valkyries.

 

Snorri