Killing Guard - or Astra Militarum if you prefer

[Captain Idaho]

We should get the ball rolling on this one because I suspect the hotness that is a horde of infantry and more tanks than you can shake a chainsword at will be terrorising tables in the immediate future. Tau and even Eldar will not want to sit back trading shots with these guys!

 

So how are we going to deal with these pathetic unimproved humans?

 

Considering that I guess we have to identify what their strengths are going to be.

 

I'm thinking of turning their strengths against them:

 

- HQ Leman Russ squadrons become a golden opportunity for First Blood (maybe) and Slay the Warlord with the benefit of not even losing out on target priority due to their dangerous firepower. Take three Drop Pod units, 2× melta units and one flamer based. If there's room because of a lack of bubble wrapping bodies, melta attack the squadron and rip the heart out of the opponent's offensive power in one turn!

 

This is likely too since the board is only so big and placing all those models so tight won't allow for great maneuvering or objective control. If not you launch a flame attack with one of your Drop Pod units instead.

 

- Chapter Master and Honour Guard! That's right I went there again! Consider the Orbital Bombardment the key weapon to cripple a squadron of Leman Russ tanks. Get yourself a re roll to hit and you have a good chance of hitting all three, especially if your opponent is trying to be clever and bubble wrap his squadron with bodies.

 

The Honour Guard themselves will carve through a screen of Guardsman fairly rapidly, so that's a good option too.

 

- Block line of sight with your Drop Pods. Easy cover saves for your Land Raider that's going for a turn 2 assault.

 

*** note guys my experience is with the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics. The above is easiest to do with them thanks to the beauty of the Tactical Doctrine and Assault Doctrine.

 

What other advice do people have?

[IK Viper]

Gut in their backfield and disrupt their gunline.  Also make sure that the tables you play on have enought LOS blocking terrain that it is not just a shooting gallery.  40k needs to be played with 1/12 of the board covered in LOS terrain (1 third of your terrain that is supposed to fit in one quarter of the board should be LOS blocking as per the rule book)  

 

Outflank, DS, Infiltrate and mobile anti-tank are great tools against Guard. They thrive off of a prolonged engagement where they can sit back and blow you away.  Close the gap quickly with alternate deployment options if you want to not get blown away.  The weakness of the Guard is it's mobile scoring.  The noble Chimera is great in front arc, but very vulnerable to side shots and barradge.  By taking out their mobile scoring elements and quickly getting in their backfield you can disrupt them and "lock" them in their DZ.  In many game types you can win the game simply by keeping them occupied in their own backfield to long to cover objectives.  (Note that objective placement can ba a big deal against guard as they do not do well in the middle of the board.  Their infantry need an ADL to do well. 

 

Thunderfire Cannons and Stormtalons are some of the best SM tools out there.  TFires kill blobs and with luck can snipe out the IC's that really make blobs tough.  Stormtalons are great ground attack craft that are really good at killing Chimera, back shotting Vendettas, and strafing infantry.  Also, the obvious answer to IG is Drop Pods/ Outflanking Rhinos loaded with Melta for the tanks and Flamers for the infantry.   

 

Based on 3-4 read throughs of the new IG book, the things you will need to look out for/ take out quickly are:

 

Primaris Psykers => ML 2 with Div. for 75 points and does not take up a slot...  Not sure why GW thought it was a good idea to guy the most powerful force multiplyer powers to the most quantity over quality army...  Div. powers on large units is soooooooooooo good.  and now they can have 3 ML 2's that can roll of Div....  :-( good job GW

 

Senior Offiicer Orders:  the Ignore Cover and Tank Hunter/ Monster Hunter orders are very powerful.  If you can, take out Senior Officers as quickly as possible as it will limit the use of these powers.  Notable Senior Officers you will probably see => Com. Command Squad (5 guys with 5+ armor, easy to take out)  Commisar Yarrick => expensive but will be burried in a blob so much harder to kill and a real CC threat as well

 

Lemman Russ Squadrons => they are much cheaper on the whole.  Squadrons + access to Divination = very powerful shooting units that most current armies are not ready to deal with,  Time to start bringing more Melta boys and girls, AV 14 is back.  

[incinerator950]

Heldrake gonna heldrake?

[MagicMan]

Getting in close generally pays off.

 

Few units in the IG codex can risk a beating from even the lowly Tactical Squad. Even tanks will suffer against a barrage of Krak Grenades, followed by a Melta-Bomb.

 

And thats to say nothing off our dedicated Assault units.

 

 

 

I'd aim to gear your army for short range fire fights, where there's plenty of chances to get stuck in. Supported by a decent fire base of long range weapons to cover you as you advance.

[Vaktathi]

As noted with the last release; get in close, don't try to win a pitched shooting war from across the table, and keep stuff as cheap as possible.

 

Don't try to outshoot IG, an SM army won't win that war unless the IG army is badly built and badly led. Leave the super-duper assault units at home, tac squads should really be as scary as you should need against most typical IG armies, anything else is wasted points as IG units (both tanks and infantry) will either be hilariously easy to kill or a tarpitty blob.

 

The scariest thing for most IG armies to face is a large model count marine army. It minimizes the attrition advantage, everything is scary, and they cuts down on clear priority targets.

 

If facing a stormtrooper army/Militarum Tempestus, while it can be daunting thinking about an entire army of AP3 dudes, they're sadly not that impressive, just remember they're just BS4 guardsmen with shorter range guns, and other than the AP3 they're really not that impressive at all but are twice the cost or more of grunts and vets.

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, a "take all comers" tournament style list may have Terminators, Vanguard or Honour Guard so you can't always tailor your army to put cheap bodies on the board.

 

Though that is why I'd take Honour Guard since Tarpitt Blob squads disappear in around 4 assault phases. This is actually ideal; you charge your turn and kill a swathe of them (around 12 or so is a good estimate), including putting Precision hits on officers where possible. Their turn you kill off a further bunch of models (8 is a healthy amount) but still they hold fast. Your next turn should see the majority of the unit killed and their turn you mop up what's left.

 

Bam, you can now charge another unit.

[Axagoras]

(ignoring the ultramarine bashing imperial guardsmen [roboute guilliman is trying to roll in his grave/stasis field]) Watch out for conscripts, 150 points for 50 bodies that with a commissar cant be swept until he dies (executions cause auto passes now) means that they can get stuck in for the long haul, (also a bit of math hammer hear, 50 conscripts will kill 1-2 honour guard (since divination, but lets say 1) honor guard charge in and deal some serious damage but will take lose about 1 around to return hits. Also lord commissars can fight a honour guard toe to toe....

 

A second thing to watch out for is the wyvern squadrons, 9 of them for 540 points will ruin anything on foot (wounding 75% of the time vs marines with 12 blasts per squad).

 

Also with most leman russ variants going down in cost expect to see a larger variety of them, personally pask with 3 punishers backed up by a primaris is just scary to think about (87 s5 tl shots can kill a tac squad a turn, kill 7-8 terminators a turn, shoot down a storm talon.

 

I really worry about 1-2 conscript squads forming a 100 man bubble wrap around anything of importance so I might need a 2nd tfc (yet with 2 inch spacing its effectiveness drops quickly, maybe 2 whirlwinds would be better) and chapter master orbitals are solid (good thing i run 3). Key thing is shut down their big guns, so taking rapiers or a spartan is never a bad idea... hell a knight will blow holes in their blobs.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm sneaky enough to add my Chapter Master to the squad who can tank wounds. A Lord Commissar can use his power axe to cause problems of course, but that's also why I use a Storm Shield!

 

Anyway, ignoring shooting to weaken a squad, my Honour Guard squad with Chapter Master wielding a Relic blade and Storm Shield and 3 power lance members, a power sword Ancient and a power sword Chapter Champion kills on the charge...

 

I believe statically kill 13 models plus a single challenge (the Champion will realistically win so often against Sergeants it's not even worth hoping as a Guard player). So 14 models dead out of a Conscript unit of 50. That's pretty damning for a single turn! The return even with Divination boon will only cause around 9 wounds which can be tanked by the Chapter Master.

 

Do they have Sergeants? If not then you're looking at the Commissar dying far quicker. And it's actually in their interests to have the Commissar lose a challenge as if doesn't he'll certainly be killed in the next turn's challenge by either the Champion or a vengeful Master, causing the squad to break in the Guard turn...

 

***

 

I'd be more worried about a Guard blob wih multiple sergeants and the aforementioned Commissar, but then I've done it before and won with a few models left so it wasn't a problem since it tied up so many points. Especially since power weapons are expensive too.

[minigun762]

Black Templar challenge and sweep entire squads

[Lysere]

I'm sneaky enough to add my Chapter Master to the squad who can tank wounds. A Lord Commissar can use his power axe to cause problems of course, but that's also why I use a Storm Shield!

 

Anyway, ignoring shooting to weaken a squad, my Honour Guard squad with Chapter Master wielding a Relic blade and Storm Shield and 3 power lance members, a power sword Ancient and a power sword Chapter Champion kills on the charge...

 

I believe statically kill 13 models plus a single challenge (the Champion will realistically win so often against Sergeants it's not even worth hoping as a Guard player). So 14 models dead out of a Conscript unit of 50. That's pretty damning for a single turn! The return even with Divination boon will only cause around 9 wounds which can be tanked by the Chapter Master.

 

Do they have Sergeants? If not then you're looking at the Commissar dying far quicker. And it's actually in their interests to have the Commissar lose a challenge as if doesn't he'll certainly be killed in the next turn's challenge by either the Champion or a vengeful Master, causing the squad to break in the Guard turn.

 

Keep in mind if you hit the unit right you'll kill so many that even after their pile in they won't have base with more than a handful, meaning little to no swings. Then you all pile in at the end and repeat the slaughter. By the time they'd get decent swings they'll already be dead.

[Axagoras]

no sgts on conscripts, just dudesmen and assuming a lord commissar, but getting there in 1 piece can be tough

[Axagoras]

guard will change the meta up hard because it brings back lots of light infantry to the game in a way no one really faces now

[Montuhotep]

All-flamer command squad in a drop pod with a MoTF armed with a combi-flamer.

 

7 flame templates on a turn one drop. Squad will definatly not survive, but it'll make a Hell of a crater in his gunline.....

[Axagoras]

only 6 flamers because one guy will have to fire a bolter to allow you to wound outside the template range but will do some work (prob better with a techmarine over a motf but moot point) but we also need to see what can kill guard hordes that will still be usable vs tau or eldar since counter lists is bad sport IMHO (not implying the advice here is doing that)

[Captain Idaho]

I agree with that. What weapons and choices we can use against all comers always does me better than tailoring.

 

I'm thinking Drop Pod attack works well against most opponents. Even Interceptor from Tau can be negated somewhat.

 

guard will change the meta up hard because it brings back lots of light infantry to the game in a way no one really faces now

Totally agree. It's their combination of heavy armour and large numbers that will force people's hand. Wave Serpent abusing Eldar will be forced to not rely on S6/7 spam since Leman Russ tanks laugh at them, yet taking on the infantry will be a challenge without their fire spam.

 

Oh my god-Emperor! People will have to take infantry to fight infantry! ;)

[WarriorFish]

First thing to do is not to underestimate the "pathetic unimproved humans", lest you find your holy bolter shoved where the Astronomicon doesn't shine Second is to think less about how many models X and Y can kill - you will beat the Guardsmen in shooting and combat the trouble is the other squads that will blast you into oblivion in return.

The Guard codex hasn't really changed structurally and theme wise so you should keep doing what you did before. Get in close to maximise your Marine's potential, flame and assault Guardsmen, krak vehicles etc. This also follows in what you take to the table, numbers will help along with keeping costs down as taking expensive and fancy units plays into your opponent's hands.

Orders have got better, so expect them to cause trouble especially granting Precision Shot and Ignores Cover. The Tank Commander's orders aren't brilliant, so you'll mostly see him splitting fire. The Guard's ability to access psyker powers more readily and the Techpriest's PotMS can give them some mean tricks to pull so that will probably crop up too.

Regarding the new units not much to add really. Scions are the same as the Stormies but a bit cheaper with a new gun and no pistol and ccw any more. They'll probably turn up more thanks to the shiny new models. The Ogryns and Bullgryns are too expensive for what you get, but enterprising Guard players might find a use for the Bull's shield wall. The Wyvern is very nasty for the price, if some of these turn up in number it'll hurt. The Taurox is ok, but with weak armour it won't be much trouble to deal with - treat it as you would Rhinos and Razorbacks as it's more or less a mix of the two.

[Axagoras]

I fought a guard list last night, guy was running a knight, 2 scion squads in primes, 1 scion command squad (primary was scions) guard was 2 vets with chimeras with primaris psykers, a lord commisar and a priest or 2 and 2 wyverns in a battery. I ran the list I used at my last tournament and rolled him pretty hard only losing 2 units to kill points

[minigun762]

I fought a guard list last night, guy was running a knight, 2 scion squads in primes, 1 scion command squad (primary was scions) guard was 2 vets with chimeras with primaris psykers, a lord commisar and a priest or 2 and 2 wyverns in a battery. I ran the list I used at my last tournament and rolled him pretty hard only losing 2 units to kill points

Anything come across as particularly scary?

[Captain Idaho]

Guard player playing elites against a Space Marines player... :)

 

The Guard who really scare me are real Guard - masses of infantry and big templates putting out more firepower dice than is healthy to carry.

[WarriorFish]

Plus it's a new codex so people are still figuring it out (though granted not as new as the Guard one!), but despite the AP3 they're not the MEQ killers like you may fear. As Idaho said as Marines it's the rank and file trooper and all the guns and tanks he brings we need to be afraid of.

[Gentlemanloser]

Cap, the IG should probably keep the LC far at the back, to keep him out of Challenge range for as long as possible.

 

As you grind down the cons.

[Captain Idaho]

That's what I'd do. Though it's actually playing into the hands of the Honour Guard.

 

Allow me to explain:

 

1) By being out of engagement range of his own squad the Lord Commissar cannot be eligible for challenges. As such the Chapter Champion can put his 6 attacks into culling the Conscripts, killing a good 3 a turn. That reduces numbers further.

 

2) If the Lord Commissar might be far enough away to avoid a challenge this turn but likely he'll make it to engagement range after pile in moves. This means he'll be in a challenge the next turn.

 

3) If the Lord Commissar is outside range of engagement then he can't strike so the threat to the squad is lessened.

 

4) Let's not forget every turn they don't break will see a model executed too.

 

Remember also, it's more likely Honour Guard will charge from a Land Raider without being shot first than the Conscripts won't be lost to shooting. In fact I'd say the liklihood is the Honour Guard charge at full strength or don't make it to combat at all, going by shooting phase Guard behaviour.

[WarriorFish]

The most you'd come across is a 50 model squad assuming anyone thought that was a good idea and their stats are low, in particular their Ld so it wouldn't take long to deal with them. They're dirt cheap, it'd be a ridiculous waste to send in a Land Raider with HG in!

[Captain Idaho]

It's only a waste if the Honour Guard don't go on to kill everything else in the list ;)

 

Seriously though, if the Honour Guard killing a bunch of fodder enables them to survive a round of shooting whilst my other units kill off key IG units then they've done their job.

 

I don't adhere to kill-hammer to win games.

[WarriorFish]

That might happen, but probably only because any player who tries such a rubbish trick is surely a poor Guard commander :P The trouble isn't taking out a unit in a Guard army, it's surviving the welcoming committee afterwards!