Killing Guard - or Astra Militarum if you prefer

[Captain Idaho]

Hence why I hate Guard!

 

Though being tied up for a few turns does keep a full strength squad Honour Guard squad alive until end game ;)

[Axagoras]

 

I fought a guard list last night, guy was running a knight, 2 scion squads in primes, 1 scion command squad (primary was scions) guard was 2 vets with chimeras with primaris psykers, a lord commisar and a priest or 2 and 2 wyverns in a battery. I ran the list I used at my last tournament and rolled him pretty hard only losing 2 units to kill points

Anything come across as particularly scary?

WE shall know no fear...  well the wyverns were pretty scary if you take 2 squads of 3 since that just stacks wounds FAST. I actually took a large number of wounds this game from all of the shooting attacks he had and am glad my sternguard were able to down the knight turn 1.

 

Also capt idaho I hate to do this but your honor guard lose a man to overwatch even to a weakened squad. and even with all of your attacks its still where you lose close to a man a round vs all of them. I know you love honour guard but vs 50 guys rerolling to hit (presience) its not so 1 sided

[AceofCase]

My personal favorite unit for fighting Guard (I have yet to fight the new codex however) is the humble Melta Speeder. With how tank squadrons work, 2 Land speeders with double multi meltas means you make short work of them. For only 20 points more than a Tri-Las Predator, you're quickly removing tanks from the table from the comfort of a jink save. Hydras lost the ability to ignore those saves, so our speeders are even safer! 

 

 

Following this Honour Guard discussion, would all 50 of those guardsmen even be able to attack? I find it hard to believe you could get ALL of them within 2 inches of those in base to base within the first round or two of combat.

[Axagoras]

@aceofcase would a land raider be able to get across the board vs a guard line every time?

[AceofCase]

@aceofcase would a land raider be able to get across the board vs a guard line every time?

 

Well, no. I'm not saying that it would. I'm just saying it's hard to say how many conscripts would be swinging back. You're completely right however, re-rolling to hit would make them quite fearsome. Especially if you realize they don't need prescience. A priest will give them zealot, with the chance of being able to re-roll to wound rolls.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

One problem using Honor Guard versus blobs is that they don't have to blob up. Now, if the player goes for Conscripts then there's no choice. However, paying 5pts per model instead of 3ppm the IG player gains flexibility--- he can blob or he can arrange his squads in screening-layers like an onion for defense in depth. Most things will overkill 10 IG bodies, but he can use the models screening to make your melta keep its distance from his tanks.

 

Of course if he doesn't blob, there are fewer safe places to 'hide' his ICs (psykers, priests) and he'll have to eat any points he spent on Blob Force Multipliers (Priests also brings up a good point about a new form of melee force multiplication which simply didn't exist for blobs before). However, he can examine your list and determine which deployment method will net him the highest strategic value per the mission you happen to be playing. IG aren't just Light Infantry, they are exceptionally flexible light infantry.

 

Additionally, Coteaz exists... so you should pay real close attention to which blob you drop-pod into flamer range against.

[Axagoras]

remember that ive been expecting you is only if you arrive within 12 of coteaz not his blob

[AceofCase]

With all this talk of light infantry blobs, perhaps we should consider the Thunderfire Cannon for us Codex: Space Marines players. The Strength 6 AP 5 blasts should be useful not only for thinning out the light infantry, but also deal with the fair number of AV 10 side armor vehicles Guard have. It's a solid all-around choice for a Heavy Support slot, plus the upgraded cover might let any backfield units gain a little extra protection from the massive number of guns on the other side of the table. The only problem being that you won't get around vets with carapace armor, especially with them getting a fair bit cheaper in the new codex.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I think Thunderfire Cannon is a great idea, and to expand on that I feel any blast weaponry will be exceptional. NOT because they are expected to do heavy damage, but because of their presence-effect.

 

Blast weaponry forces the opponent to spread out, using a minimum of 1.25" spread between each model (then small blasts only hit one model on a direct hit). However, spacing 30+ models within 1.25" of each other creates some interesting points already brought up-- when going for a full charge, you are MUCH more likely to "clear the killzone" meaning when the IG pile-in at I3, none of them will be able to swing. If they are all packed in like peanuts, there's almost no chance to clear the killzone, but if you have blast weapons then they are forced to pick between two bad choices.

 

Additionally, when a large unit is forced to spread out, there is less risk when executing a 'pulled charge' where you specifically attempt to do less damage than you could in melee. There will be far less swings back at you when the enemy is spread out versus executing a pulled-charge when they are densely packed.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm thinking a Thunderfire cannon might be a great choice. Hide it behind a Vengeance Battery and remove a squad a turn with impunity.

 

Also capt idaho I hate to do this but your honor guard lose a man to overwatch even to a weakened squad. and even with all of your attacks its still where you lose close to a man a round vs all of them. I know you love honour guard but vs 50 guys rerolling to hit (presience) its not so 1 sided

You mean the Chapter Master loses a few wounds? Not a problem for me. ;)

 

Seriously though, I've done it before to a blob squad and it does slow down the squad and cost a few lives. Until late game when my Warlord and a few of the squad are free all of a sudden to cause trouble in the Guard lines. With Drop Pod squads and the like the Guard player will have less to fight them with.

[Shuggnuggath]

You should probably expect to be facing Yarrick plus several priests and force axe wielding psykers in any decent blob squad. 

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I do. But I was pointing out how the take all comers list including Honour Guard are still relevant in a competitive game.

 

Personally such a unit is crying out for a Thunderfire or a bit of flaming rather than assault.

[Black Cohort]

Also consider Ironclads, any Ironclad loadout will scare a proper guard player.  Personally I like the dual heavy flamer one, but melta with HKs would mess up some tanks.

 

You will either ravage a blob or cripple a tank the turn you drop and the Ironclad will either take a bunch of fire before dying or survive and go on to punch tanks into little pieces.

[Shuggnuggath]

Thats why my guard squad sergeants are packing melta bombs.

I think the best weapon space marines have is Thunderfire Cannons, and not just vs guard.

Drop pods are also good, especially since guard don't have any interceptor without taking allies.

[Azash]

I don't think relying on inflicting maximum casualties will be enough. Yes a TFC is great but what happens when its a blob of 50 conscripts within Yarricks 12" bubble? (Or they have a priest).

 

Essentially for just a few points more than your TFC they have given it something to chew on for 3 turns. At 1750-1850-2000 I think we are under estimating the sheer number of bodies they will have on the table. Again let me state this clearly that Yarrick morale bubble is HUGE!

 

I think having some sort of viable fast attack units (I favor bikes) that can get in and pull them to belt buckle range. Combined with things like a TFC, IK, WW (pie plate spam) will present a dual threat and force them to divide fire.

 

Now this is where drop pods will help as will rhinos cause if there heavy weaponry is preoccupied you have mobility and advantage and can get first shot.

 

The key I think is multiple simultaneous threats so the units you choose have to be threatening but points efficient. If you have one really expensive juggernaught on the field it just allows them to focus all there fire power in one direction.

 

Also with guard, the nid gargoyle blobs, and works around the corner I think flamers will come back into fashion as crowd control will be very important.

[GreyCrow]

Vindicators and Whirlwinds ! :D

 

In all seriousness though, as someone pointed out, blast weapons will work well and force the enemy to spread out to avoid damage. The goal is to saturate the wound rolls so that they will lose a few men each time. More importantly, you have to force so many AP5 wounds on them that they will be forced to go to ground to increase their cover save in order not to lose models 7 at a time.

 

And when they do, it is time to charge. Models gone to ground can't fire overwatch shots.

[minigun762]

One of those times I think the whirlwind really beats out the Thunderfire

[Captain Idaho]

Oh how so? Cheaper but not as offensive or survivable and still a barrage weapon.

[minigun762]

Oh how so? Cheaper but not as offensive or survivable and still a barrage weapon.

Better AP value for ignore cover rounds mostly that and I have faith in the large blast then multiple small blasts

[GreyCrow]

The large blast does help reduce the scatter risk compared to the small blast, although you will hit less people in optimal conditions.

 

To be honest, the Castellan missile really isn't worth it imho. Because cover from barrage weapons is determined from the center of the blast rather than the incoming direction, in most cases you will use the vengeance missiles, while the Castellan will be great if the unit is in something with multiple cover giving elements like a forest.

 

Actually, in area terrain, do model count as being in cover from shots fired from the same area terrain (when there is no visual elements to represent the cover, like trees) ?

[Captain Idaho]

 

Oh how so? Cheaper but not as offensive or survivable and still a barrage weapon.

Better AP value for ignore cover rounds mostly that and I have faith in the large blast then multiple small blasts

Forgot about that but I do think wounding on a 2+ on more dudes (should get more hits) will net more kills.

 

Has anyone some experience on the two? I'm thinking you'll not hit more than 7 or 8 Guard with a pie plate unless they're stupid bunched up. Alternatively you'll hit a good what? 9 to 12 with a Thunderfire?

 

I'm surely spit balling but the numbers feel legit from what I've experienced.

[minigun762]

 

 

Oh how so? Cheaper but not as offensive or survivable and still a barrage weapon.

Better AP value for ignore cover rounds mostly that and I have faith in the large blast then multiple small blasts

Forgot about that but I do think wounding on a 2+ on more dudes (should get more hits) will net more kills.

 

Has anyone some experience on the two? I'm thinking you'll not hit more than 7 or 8 Guard with a pie plate unless they're stupid bunched up. Alternatively you'll hit a good what? 9 to 12 with a Thunderfire?

 

I'm surely spit balling but the numbers feel legit from what I've experienced.

 

I'd be curious to see the results of a comparison. 

Blasts and small blasts are some of the more difficult things to math-hammer out. 

[Axagoras]

I feel as the first person in my area to ever use a thunderfire cannon (late 5th ed mind you) that I have some experience with it... vs unskilled/sloppy players you can kill 45 models with it in 1 salvo... vs people who spread the heck out, eh you just killed 3-7 gaunts. that is the issue is it is so hit or miss that you can cause no damage or wreck face with it. A large blast on average is less potential but higher average damage vs skilled players. speaking on the whirlwind vs tfc the fact the whirlwind is ap 4 is amazing while you still wound on 2s (vs xenos/humans) and can ignore cover and kill things in a 5+ armor (wounding on 3s but no save) while the tfc just cant do that... looking purely at anti guard though the tfc kinda wins out for its s6 shell for IDing heavy weapon teams and company commanders/multiwound models.

 

Also I have killed a knight with it... just saying

[Garath]

Thunderfire cannon fires 4 blasts . Whirlwind fires one. You can field 3 Whirlwinds for 2 TFC .   

 

  That's the correct way to make a comparison .

 

  Let's look at the Whirlwind

 

  A vehicle with 48"range and 2 firing modes , AV equal to a rhino.  What was already said - it's very hard to math hammer it in.  But the value of a model has to be looked upon from all aspects that the model brings to the table.  On one hand we are bound to observe the firepower that the model brings- but it's survivability is another factor .  The more survivable a model is, the more time it will spend firing and therefore cause more damage.

   Whirlwind is suspendable to all kinds of AT firepower- from plasma,missiles - you get the picture.  It has almost the lowest possible AV out there. 

   That AV ,of a rhino , doesn't guarantee that it will fire for more then a round or 2 if the enemy get's it in their LOS. 

 

  This can be migitated by 2 things- keeping out of LOS and out of range of most enemy weapons. 

 

  As for the firepower alone- it depends.  If you're firing at a unit that has just been tank shocked or has dropped out from a burning wreck - WW will kill a lot of models. 

  A battery of 3 of them will give you an option to repeat the process if you find a suitable target.  3 WW are also somewhat more difficult to hide.

 

  TFC

 

  You get a Techmarine and a cannon.  This is important to note. If the enemy destroys the cannon but doesn't kill the TM - he will gain no KP for it. TM also improves the cover save of a piece of terrain - which can be useful and is skill dependant.

  As for the firepower - we can view it as a weapon that is hit or miss,  On the other hand , 2 TFC  WILL hit something.  The firing modes are also an interestng option as some models have trouble with difficult terrain (and that's one o the effects available) .

   Survivability of TFC is better then that of the WW as high T is better then medium AV.  And you can abuse it's...(60"?) range

 

   As a Dark angels player,  WW is a model I often use and it pays for it's points every single time.  The fear factor it brings is worth it alone.   Outside of allies , I have no option to field TFC.  If I did I would.

 

 

   One final question- why not take both?

[WarriorFish]

Let's not forget that in a flinging match between deployment zones the Guard will beat Marines easily, so I think the smaller blasts from the TF will be a positive as it means you're more likely to be able to keep firing without fear of hitting your own troops so much (you are closing in for the kill without delay, right?).