Assault Cannons, where do they shine ?

[GreyCrow]

Hey guys !

 

I have trouble assessing the usefulness of assault cannons (or twin-linked assault cannons) to really see where they shine. I've had good runs versus light infantry, but I didn't have much exposure to other targets otherwise.

I feel they epitomize the Marines : a Jack of all Trades weapon that can be used for a variety of purposes without a clear field of expertise... unless I'm missing something ?

 

Thanks for helping out !

[Black Cohort]

Assault cannons are good against anything thanks to rending with a bit of luck. They shine most at taking out light vehicles and light-medium infantry, but are surprisingly effective at dealing with heavy infantry and tanks. Don't count on them to drop a monstrous creature in one volley but an assault cannon can help put one down. The twin linked ones can also be ok at taking out thinly armoured flyers. I have lost land raiders to a lucky assault cannon volley.

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

Eldar. Can Instant Death most characters not on a Jetbike and can put a world of hurt into armour, thanks to low AV on most Eldar vehicles. As mentioned Rending combined with twin-linking is also vicious.

 

They are also very useful against foot Marines as they'll wound almost everything on 2+. 3/4 wounds per volley will mount up real quick.

[Garath]

     Try looking at it this way:  Assault cannons will help

 

  Every list you make will be obviously better at dealing with some targets then against the others.   A list with 15 flamers and 3 lascannons is better against swarms then against MC or heavy vechicles.

 

  Assault cannon is just the weapon to balance it out - it can kill anything !   

 

  That rending seems very random in nature, but the chances of actually getting a rending shot are pretty good even with a single AC firing.  When you double the number of ACs , things start being very scary indeed. 

[Captain Idaho]

I quite enjoy an Assault Cannon coupled with a twin linked Autocannon on a Dreadnought. 6 high strength shots a turn is a great anti infantry choice.

[minigun762]

Assault cannon are actually better heavy armor busters than lascannons if we ignore the range difference.

 

But really, it is a true jack of all trades weapon, even more so than missile launcher.

[Axagoras]

although the only way to get them is on a dreadnought, a land raider, tactical termies and a storm raven/talon...

 

now a contemptor dreadnought with 2 kheres assault cannons is where its at (except for the bs drop and the +20 points for no reason... grumble grumble)

[GreyCrow]

Axagoras, you forgot the Razorback ! Part of my question is that I'm pondering on whether to include it on my Razorbacks, tee hee !

Let's look at the math for the heavy vehicles, because it's something I haven't delved into.

Versus Armour Value 13 :

Lascannon :

No damage chance - 2/6 + (4/6*3/6) = 2/6 + 2/6 = 4/6 or 66% chance

Glacing chance - (2/3*1/6) = 11% chance

Penetrating chance - (2/3*2/6) = 22% chance

Explode chance - (2/3*2/6*2/6) = 7,4% chance

Assault Cannon (per hit) :

No damage chance - 2/6 + (4/6*5/6) = 84% chance

Glancing chance - 4/6*1/6*1/3 = 3,7% chance

Penetrating chance - 4/6*1/6*2/3 = 7,4% chance

Explode chance - 4/6*1/6*2/3*2/6 = 2,4% chance

On average per turn :

Lascannon (1 shot) = 0.11 glancing, 0.22 penetrating, 0.074 explode, 0.67 nothing

Assault Cannon (4 shots) = 3.36 nothing, 0.148 glancing, 0.296 penetrating, 0.096 explode results

Against AV13, the 4 shot do on average more glancing and penetrating hits than the Lascannon, that is true. This is very counter intuitive to be honest, haha !

To be perfectly honest, I should have to look at the distribution chance. Because, even though on average they make more hits, what about the chance per hit ?

The problem with averages is that if I have my head in the freezer and my feet in the oven, on average I feel good

[minigun762]

As someone who likes doing math-hammer, I'd actually say don't stress the difference here. They are equivalent for armor and MCs and the biggest difference is the lack of range vs improved Anti Infantry.

[GreyCrow]

Well, the lack of range isn't really a problem for me, because I play Raven Guard and so I can scout Assault cannons forward ;)

I can see your point about the equivalence vs armour, but I don't gt your point about "stressing the difference" there ?

 

(I actually edited my post for the Explode! result, I forgot to take into account the fact that AP2 increase the roll by 1 on the damage chart)

 

Let me do real quick the same math, but against AV14 this time

 

Versus Armour Value 13 :

Lascannon :

No damage chance - 2/6 + (4/6*4/6) = 2/6 + 2/6 = 7/9 or 78% chance

Glacing chance - (2/3*1/6) = 11% chance

Penetrating chance - (2/3*1/6) = 11% chance

Explode chance - (2/3*1/6*2/6) = 3,7% chance

 

Assault Cannon (per hit) :

No damage chance - 2/6 + (4/6*5/6) + (4/6*1/6*1/3) = 92,6% chance

Glancing chance - 4/6*1/6*1/3 = 3,7% chance

Penetrating chance - 4/6*1/6*1/3 = 3,7% chance

Explode chance - 4/6*1/6*1/3*2/6 = 1,2% chance

 

On average per turn :

Lascannon (1 shot) = 0.11 glancing, 0.11 penetrating, 0.074 explode, 0.78 nothing

Assault Cannon (4 shots) = 3.7 nothing, 0.148 glancing, 0.148 penetrating, 0.048 explode results

 

The Assault Cannon is still slightly better against AV14 than the dedicated Lascannon, in equivalent proportions as you mentionned. This is an amazing finding ! Because the Assault Cannon is better than the Lascannon for any other target thanks to the volume of shots !

 

One more time, versus AV11 this time :

Lascannon :

No damage chance - 2/6 + (4/6*1/6) = 44% chance

Glancing chance - (2/3*1/6) = 11% chance

Penetrating chance - (2/3*4/6) = 45% chance

Explode chance - (2/3*4/6*2/6) = 15% chance

 

Assault Cannon (per hit) :

No damage chance - 2/6 + (4/6*3/6) = 67% chance

Glancing chance - 4/6*1/6 = 11% chance

Penetrating chance - 4/6*2/6 = 22% chance

Explode chance - (4/6*1/6*1/6) + (4/6*1/6*2/6) = 5,5% chance

 

On average per turn :

Lascannon (1 shot) = 0.11 glancing, 0.45 penetrating, 0.15 explode, 0.44 nothing

Assault Cannon (4 shots) = 2.7 nothing, 0.44 glancing, 0.88 penetrating, 0.22 explode results

 

This was to be expected of course, but it's quite a nice improvement. Rhinos better behave ! Especially with a Twin Linked AC, where the bonus will apply to 4 shots rather than 1...

 

As an anti-tank platform, then, the determining benefit of the Lascannon is range rather than punch, then ?

[minigun762]

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I just meant I wouldn't get fixated on fractional differences between the two choices. Not saying you were, just a general comment about missing the bigger picture when comparing math-hammer results.

 

All that said, I like assault cannons for the same reason I like melta bombs. It gives me a chance against anything.

[ElectricPaladin]

I agree with the sentiment that assault cannons are an extremely versatile weapon. With a high ROF and the Strength and AP needed to make those shots count, they do reasonably well against hordes. With Rending, however, they can also do surprisingly well against MEQs and even TEQs. They make great weapons for Space Marines of all kinds because they excel at the same range as our basic - and powerful! - infantry: 24'' and less. Put 'em on your dreads. Put 'em on your tanks. Put 'em on your terminators. Assault cannons for everyone!

[Captain Idaho]

Another key thing to consider is Assault cannons required specific choices for your army that are either expensive or not particularly survivable (especially considering the range).

 

Lascannons are easier to spam on affordable platforms but of course you'll lose Heavy Support slots if you do so.

[GreyCrow]

Captain, I'm currently playing on Raven Guard Chapter Tactics (considering Ultramarines as well), which means that I can get the cannons in range quite early on from a Razorback that is a dedicated transport as well.

One option I had in mind was to use Cato's Infiltrate rule given to the Tactical squads a way to Infiltrate the Razorback close to enemy lines and wreak havoc. The problem I find is that I fear it will not be well supported once there...

 

Currently, I rock Lascannons on the Tactical squads. This is perhaps not optimal at all considering the Chapter Tactics.

[minigun762]

For RG, I'd actually consider MM on Tacs as the reduced range is less of an issue. And let's not forget that even at 24", a MM is a cheaper Krak missile with AP1. Not shabby at all.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah that's definitely one variant I consider a great way to use assault cannons. Raven Guard can get within striking distance much easier, thus lessening the impact of softer platforms taking place in your list.

[GreyCrow]

For RG, I'd actually consider MM on Tacs as the reduced range is less of an issue. And let's not forget that even at 24", a MM is a cheaper Krak missile with AP1. Not shabby at all.

 

 

Well, I have tried that already, and I wasn't very impressed by the results unfortunately. The problem is triple. First of all, the enemy is likely not to be in range after a scouting Rhino move, if you plan to shoot it from the top hatch.

Additionally, you can't reliably shoot after a disembarkation because of the snap shots.

Thirdly, the enemy will gently avoid your 12" range with his vehicles. While this works great as a detterent, if the enemy decides to bring an assault vehicle, he can easily during his turn : move within 12", disembark the squad, charge into your multi melta.

 

No matter how I look at it, Infantry is not a great platform for delivering Multi Meltas, except for the Legion of the Damned. Oh boy, my full Melta LOTD squad works wonders against all types of enemies !

[Cactus]

although the only way to get them is on a dreadnought, a land raider, tactical termies and a storm raven/talon...

 

...and land speeders.

[minigun762]

Good points GreyCrow, I'll have to reconsider my advice.

[DerekLee688]

Hmm, looking at dread, Raven, and talons as the most attractive of the vanilla choices.. I just don't like the LR weapon combo's and everything else is too squishy. TDA might be worth trying, but the 2x shot ML is tough one to pass. I'll model a TDA AC eventually because rule of cool, so I'll try it when I bitz bash it.