Deathwing vs. Fish o' Fury: Prot's first attempt

[Prot]

Hey guys,

 

I had started a few threads as I try to transition from Ravenwing to Deathwing. I asked about how to construct a core, and the advice was good... See it HERE  If you are interested.

 

I finally put all the models together and constructed the list to a very basic standard. At 1850 I was basically going with:

 

Belial

10 terminators (2 CML, hammers)

5 Termniators (assault cannon)

 

Landraider Crusader w\ 5 Deathwing Knights + Termie Librarian

 

Landraider (lascannons)

 

 

 

The Tau were pretty much a Netlist variant you've probably seen: "Buff-mander" with Suit squad with Rail guns, and a truckload of missile/drones.

 

Multiple Firewarriors, Ethereal for the extra shot, a squad of Kroot, 2 Fliers (can't remember the name). 2 x Riptides (ugh), and a Tetra (?) with fusion blaster, and a 3 man suit squad with Fusion Blasters as well.

 

 

We got the victory point scenario and the diagonal deployment... probably the worst deployment for me.

 

I won the roll off for first deploy...

 

I slapped down my two landraiders, with the DeathKnights in the LR Crusader.... I then said...'go'. And as I watched the plethora of gilled, fishy-firepower get deployed I felt a huge sense of impending doom. Once he explained what "buff-mander" does and the amount of support firepower, and the sheer number of models he outnumbered me by, I absolutely felt like this might be my last game with Deathwing....

 

 

Turn 1: To Cut the Head off the Fish....

 

Belial took 10 of his finest down planetside in turn one. One squad of 5 Termies also went to the eastern edge in hopes that the distraction would leave them untouched.

 

Beilal's squad carefully positioned themselves to make sure the Buff-mander was the closest target.... before the Tau could react 4 krak missiles found their way to the Buffmander and being the coward fish he is, he tried to put as many much tuna in front of the missiles as possible. After one or two "Look out sirs" finally the king tuna took a Missile to the melon and popped.....

 

That was a big opener that saw my opponent's heart sink. It got me first blood, and Slay the Warlord in a shot.

 

The rest of my army did very little. I had some good shooting from the 5 man squad but I could feel something ugly about to happen.

 

Turn 2: Salmon fights back....

 

I forgot a big moment that happened in turn 1; When Belial and friends dropped down my opponent forewarned me that BOTH of his Riptides had the ability to shoot on me with interceptor.... Fine I said, Belial laughs at this (inside I was pooping my pants because he had full ranged, and nasty templates with a good weight of firepower.) He missed with everything.

 

This meant in his turn the Riptides couldn't fire, so instead they lurched forward... one towards my mini convoy of Landraiders, and the other went for the 5 man termie squad threatening his eastern front lines.... Both overcharged for a better invuln save.... very annoying.

 

The sheer weight of the fish was felt here.... so, so many shots here. Rail guns, firewarriors, Kroot, more firewarriors just unloaded on me. His fliers came in as well. I took tremendous firepower and Belial held strong, but his squad did not!!!

 

I lost about 7 Termies from sheer weight of firepower. Down to 3 + Belial I knew I had to old out long enough to assault. The 5 man squad somehow survived an amazing rain of fire and only lost one model.

 

His two riptides slammed forward.... one into my 5 man squad and the other into my lead Landraider. The Landraider felt the blows, but shrugged them off as he failed to pen. My 5 man termie squad did even better, taking a fist beating to the riptide.... I held off okay, but Belial was in trouble.

 

Turn 3: Belial looks to fry some salmon, if he lives long enough....

 

This would be a huge turn. With only 2 remaining Terminators, Belial shot with zero effect at the Buffmander's remaining squad.

 

The Landraider Crusader had enough of the Riptide. Since the Riptide had just failed an overcharge and took a wound (thus failing to increase their invulnerable save) a calculated risk was made; The Deathwing Kinghts poured out of the Crusader and the Landraider to their North decided to pump two las wounds into the Riptide. Reeling from the shots, the Knights took their cue and ignited their flails as they roared into the wounded monstrosity. Before the Riptide could right itself, the Knights pulverized the last wounds off of the creature and retreated to the Crusader.

 

Without riptides, and the failure of his battlesuits to deepstrike,  my opponent was worried. I did the math and honestly told my opponent that I would be in full retreat as I had 8 or so victory points to his 1. He had the numerical superiority but admitted the Landraiders were going to be a problem unless....

 

He deepstruck 3 suits with blasters in hopes of roasting a Landraider, but he was desperate, and placed the suits in a precarious location and rolled deviation. The Librarian sensed the disturbance in the warp and banished the foolish plankton to oblivion! My opponent's bad luck had the squad land right on my Librarian/Knights and rolled a 1 on the misshap. A tetra with a fusion blaster also tried a few shots at a landraider, failed, and was destroyed in return.

 

Belial and his two buddies rushed in. One died to overwatch, the other died to a close combat wound! Belial using precision hits started melting missile drones. This would be a long, slow assault but I felt he would last the game.... my opponent could do little to get 3 wounds off of Belial.

 

As they retreated, the Landraiders started chewing up squads of Firewarriors. Belial was indeed stranded but far from dead. He just continued batting fish on the head until the game would end.

 

Endgame.

 

My opponent realized with my 9 or so killpoints that he could not touch the Landraiders, and wouldn't be able to wipe me. He killed off my 5 man squad to get his second killpoint, and conceded.

 

I have to say the game felt incredibly difficult. The army being so small.... I felt at a disadvantage from the time we took our armies out!

 

I'm not sure I can continue with the Deathwing, as I am far more comfortable with Ravenwing but still quite a fun game!

 

Thanks for the help and advice.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think, like everything, practice will make you better with it. It would do some good to add an apothecary to that 10 man squad. By average it would make them more resilient to fire and able to take and dish out more punishment.

[johnyocum]

Lucifer, I think that 10-man squad is actually a 10-man Deathwing Terminator Squad, not a Deathwing Command Squad, so an Apothecary can't be brought with it, directly.

 

 

However, a command squad (to bring an Apothecary OR a Standard of Fortitude) would probably be a serious boost to durability.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Funny, I thought that DW command squads could be augmented to 10 men... but come to think of it it would mean one less scoring unit.... Conumdrum...

[Prot]

Thanks.

 

When I was asking for DW advice, a great number of the DA community was against the idea in a competitive environment. Plus, as mentioned, the lack of troops becomes a serious problem for me.

 

I keep trying to find a way to ditch the LR's and increase my numbers but it's a catch 22 as the rules dictate I need half my units on the table anyway.... argh. (I wonder if that changes in 7th ed?).

 

I'll continue to struggle to find a balance, but yes, an Apothecary would have been HUGE in that game (with 10 guys!)

[SvenONE]

DW Command squad at 10 would be awesome but we can't do it

I didn't see what Belial had SoS? or TH/SS?

I think without the landraiders you are fighting an even tougher battle than you did. Even 1 would make it difficult. You got lucky on the missed shots from the riptide so that's good.

Edit: You don't want to ditch those landraiders, they're honestly what's holding your list together from falling apart entirely.

[Prot]

DW Command squad at 10 would be awesome but we can't do it

I didn't see what Belial had SoS? or TH/SS?

I think without the landraiders you are fighting an even tougher battle than you did. Even 1 would make it difficult. You got lucky on the missed shots from the riptide so that's good.

Edit: You don't want to ditch those landraiders, they're honestly what's holding your list together from falling apart entirely.

Belial is vanilla with SoS. It was good enough for most of this particular opponent but it was bad against the railgun suits which the Buffmander was attached to. As mentioned in the batrep, it wasn't until his initiatlve step where he came in that I could start killing off drones with precision assault wounds.... It felt like the right choice in this game as I did not foresee losing my two Thunderhammer/Shield/CML guys so early.

The Landraiders... I felt lucky to dodge so many riptide shots/assaults, and fusion blasters from squads of suits and the tetra.... But I have to really figure out if there is a better way to spend THAT many points in such a small army. The other thought might be... more greenwing? A bastion with troops, scouts? Bikes even? IDK. Just guessing at this point.

[lost_angel]

Hats off Prot. Very impressive victory there. Nice to see DW pull one off against one of the meanest lists out there. Out of curiosity; how many th/ss was your 10 man squad packing?

[Gillyfish]

Believe it or not, a full Deathwing army is one of the harder lists to win with out there, so you did really well to get such a convincing victory. Nice report too. :)

[Prot]

Hats off Prot. Very impressive victory there. Nice to see DW pull one off against one of the meanest lists out there. Out of curiosity; how many th/ss was your 10 man squad packing?

Thanks! Out of the 15 Deathwing Terminators I had an option of 3 specials.... so I decided to just put Thunder Hammer/Shields on the two dudes armed with the Missile Launchers with Belial. The 5 man squad had an Assault Cannon and just a fist. So yea, only 2 Hammer/Shields but of course there was the 5 man DeathKnight Squad which had a limited role but nevertheless they did bag a Riptide after it failed to overcharge.

Believe it or not, a full Deathwing army is one of the harder lists to win with out there, so you did really well to get such a convincing victory. Nice report too.

Thanks Gillyfish. I don't want to just 'run' back to Ravenwing because it is my comfort zone but it definitely felt very difficult even though the game was always in my favour. I never felt... in control. I always felt a fistfull of bad dice away from losing hundreds of points of models. It's not a great feeling, and something I guess you have to get used to.

I have another game lined up this weekend but no clue on what, if anything to change in the list. I'm going to give the Deathwing a few more shots and see what I can do with them.

[MadMek83]

Yeah, dice gods were at your side. However Landraider is quite big equalizer, especially against Tau with netlists, which most often focus on anti-infantry fire. I have to admit that I have been lacking in my 1.st company business, I still haven't been able to get my Deathwing Knights nor Landraider Crusader. However with new part time job, I should make those realize before autumn.

 

Thank you for sharing this battle report :D

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Would a thunder hammer squad have been as useful as the Deathwing knights in these circumstances?

[Prot]

Would a thunder hammer squad have been as useful as the Deathwing knights in these circumstances?

 

Actually it definitely would have! But finding room for that in a list with Knights is really tough because you already have a dedicated CC unit and are lacking in mass firepower... it's a tough give and take. 

[Isiah]

I think maybe Freman was meaning instead of Knights rather than as well as (?) possibly. With a cyclone too for the helpful krak missiles.

 

Cheers

I

[johnyocum]

Prot, had you taken TH/SS termies instead of the Knights, you might've had a little more shooting firepower on the turn you charged, and they'd have been Troops instead of Elites, plus might've gotten you back a few points.

 

I think that's part of the direction Freman was going with his question.

 

Edit:  Isiah, you beat me to it...

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Great minds think alike...

 

At least that's what I keep telling myself.

 

Unfortunately Deathwing are expensive units making small armies. If a unit doesn't score it's detracting from units that can.

 

I'd like to take a Command Squad with the regen banner, but it's the cost of a Deathwing squad and doesn't score. I like Deathwing Knights but they don't score. Terminator librarian? Love the model (converted one with a force axe with the Wolf Guard axe head), same problem.

 

I applaud you Prot, for your victory, but as you found with the Tyranids scoring units are essential.

 

Of course Tyranids would out-score you regardless, unless they went monster heavy, and even then they could probably still do so.

I think in 2000 points you could get Belial and a maximum of 40 terminators. Obviously you're going to have to sacrifice some to get support, because terminators can't do it alone. 11 terminators give you 2 Land Raiders (don't make them dedicated transports because the Deathwing upgrade is expensive) which you probably need to get across the table. You'll sacrifice a terminator for every two cyclone missile launchers which you'll need for range. You'll definitely want a few thunder hammers in there, that's one terminator for 9. Unfortunately Godhammer Raiders are probably the best option because they add heavy firepower which your army needs.

 

Something like.

 

Belial (thunder hammer, storm shield)

Land Raider, lascannons

Land Raider, lascannons

10 terminators, thunder hammers, two cyclones (deep strike in with Belial)

5 terminators, chainfist, cyclone

5 terminators, chainfist, cyclone

5 terminators, thunder hammers, cyclone

 

By my reckoning that should hit the 2000 point mark exactly. Four scoring units, two armour 14 transports that can transport any of the five man squads. Five cyclones. Twenty five pairs of boots on the ground.

 

Will it die horribly? Most likely yes. However it fits my fondness for terminators.

 

At 1850 points, that's more difficult. Dropping three terminators and one cyclone from Belial's squad would free up the points required, but that would decrease the durability and firepower of the unit. Darn you GW.

[Prot]

You guys are right.... unfortunately it seems the only way to make this work at 1850 or lower is ditch the Knights. That really peeves me because the models, ideals, and 'fun factor' with these guys is great, but the trade off is too steep to keep them.

 

The brutal thing is I started a painting 'Challenge" with a buddy and finally started painting a squad of Knights... ugh. So now what? I rip all their right arms off and throw hammers on them?

 

But yea, I see that I pretty much have to drop the 'fun' factor stuff off the list... the Librarian too I suppose although he might be the last to go... he's so cheap with one warp charge and Prescience is still very useful to that squad (hammers or knights) but at the end of the day when trimming the fat he might have to go.

 

The Nid game was over before it started. The fat in my list made it impossible to contend with.... 6+ monstrous creatures while having only 2 scoring units in an objective based game.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

If they had changed just one rule in 6th, allowing all non-character infantry to count as scoring units (perhaps to avoid abuse up to a maximum of six scoring units total) it would have given small elite armies like Deathwing a major boost.

 

Alas they didn't, because GW play in a world where a fearless terminator with thunder hammer and storm shield is worth 49 points, rather than a more appropriate 39 (maybe still too expensive). Silly GW.

[McFisty]

Personally, I wish that Belial allowed any non-HQ unit in terminator armor to count as troops. That would include Deathwing Knights. It might also be important to state that only one unit of Knights can be taken per army list or something similar, otherwise there might be several units of Knights in every army list. I agree that Knights are most feasible at 2K points or more but that does detract from their overall use and therefore, the overall fun factor too.

Great post Prot. I like the fish theme to your Bat Rep story, very well written.

[Prot]

Thanks.

 

I've heard rumours in 7th from a friend about 'ratios' rather than hard rules for units in composition... I have no idea the validity of this, but it could be a game changer.

 

Also a killer for me is the 50% on the table rule. Not sure how much longer I'll stick this out before heading back to Ravenwing but this is a fun challenge for sure.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I love terminators and I love bikes. Hence why (when I discovered I'd accumulated 50 plastic terminators) I decided my Marine bikes should become Dark Angel successors.