Naked sternguard veterans

[Knight of the Raven]

No, I don't mean Chippendales.

 

Maybe the Search is weak in this one, but I didn't find anything answering my question.

 

Are sternguard squads without combi-weapons worth bothering with? If they are, how should I use them?

[Black Cohort]

I run them in either a rhino or razorback with no combi weapons. I use them to support my tactical squads with their special issue ammo. Rapid fire with hellfire rounds or vengeance rounds is super useful for putting hurt on infantry.

[Dumah]

I've been considering this also. Since I'm building a Raptors army, I figure that Legendary Marksmen could partially make up for the lack of melta by putting Rending shots on rear armor. I'll probably take mine on foot and outflank them with Issodon.

[Lysere]

Against many armies Sternguard without combis can still be very effective. I've done 5 man drop pod teams before when fighting armies like orks. At those times I just use them to draw enemy attention or whittle down troops from mid range. The only thing you can't fight at that point are vehicles and deathstars.

[Tiger9gamer]

I'm wondering if naked sterns are best as sniper support or as a blitz style unit.

[GreyCrow]

I'm wondering if naked sterns are best as sniper support or as a blitz style unit.

 

Halfway in between. When I play using Raven Guard Tactics, I usually have 10 of them in a Rhino scouting up to the middle of the board and take position and not bulge for the rest of the game.

 

I don't get to Rapid Fire range much, but they really help controlling the battlefield. With them I stopped the advance of an entire Chaos Marine army thanks to combat squadding, hehe

[minigun762]

No, I don't mean Chippendales.

 

Maybe the Search is weak in this one, but I didn't find anything answering my question.

 

Are sternguard squads without combi-weapons worth bothering with? If they are, how should I use them?

That has been my personal conclusion.

There are other, better suicide melta units or special weapon spammers.

You're paying for the SIA, so fully utilize it. Luckily you can typically find a worthwhile target on the board.

[Axagoras]

 

No, I don't mean Chippendales.

 

Maybe the Search is weak in this one, but I didn't find anything answering my question.

 

Are sternguard squads without combi-weapons worth bothering with? If they are, how should I use them?

That has been my personal conclusion.

There are other, better suicide melta units or special weapon spammers.

You're paying for the SIA, so fully utilize it. Luckily you can typically find a worthwhile target on the board.

the only one I can think of it a command squad for spaming melta, with plasma they cost the same and you cant take 10... now I may be biased but I run 10 in a pod with 8 combi meltas and 2 melt guns (pod has istvann 5 legacy of glory) so I can deal some serious damage on 2 targets turn 1. Also vs vehicles with a 4+ cover save in the open you need 4-5 melta shots to have a good chance of a kill...

[minigun762]

MM Speeders

MM Dreads

Command Squad

MM and Melta LotD

 

Not saying they are 100% the same, but the fit the same basic goal of drop in and kill a tank, and they have the bonus of being cheaper.

[Axagoras]

ture, but 1 melta gun on a dread is not consistent enough, speeders are decent but i watch them drop way to fast Attack bikes are prob where its at

[Knight of the Raven]

That's excellent news! Thanks for the answers.

[minigun762]

ture, but 1 melta gun on a dread is not consistent enough, speeders are decent but i watch them drop way to fast Attack bikes are prob where its at

You're right that one shot isn't enough, but you have the follow up threat of more shots and potential assault.

That said, I don't rate it as high as some of the other options.

[Cornelias]

I think LOTD fly under the radar most of the time but they can really change a game for you, i prefer my sternguard without combi's since the price hike (usually just sticking a CC weapon on the sgt and taking a heavy flamer for utility). They'll usually achieve what i plan out for them and/or soak up plenty of fire.

[minigun762]

If you ran a Captain with a combi weapon with the naked SG, what combi weapon makes the most sense?

[Black Templar 307th Comp.]

One thing they do really well without combis is put a hurting on monstrous creatures with their 2+ poison. Just force them to hit saves.

[GreyCrow]

If you ran a Captain with a combi weapon with the naked SG, what combi weapon makes the most sense?

I would more likely run the Primarch's Wrath rather than any combi-weapons. It's only 10 points more and put a lot of hurt on the enemy whether you moved or not.

I run a fun Chapter Master with it on a Jump Pack and the Armour Indomitus and he enjoys greatly hopping around the battlefield killing 5 models each volley

EDIT : By the way, I couldn't help but try to find a suitable image for the title : http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs6/i/2005/070/f/9/Space_Marine_Illustration_by_dawnbest.jpg

Mods, please advise if I broke a rule, I will follow the Imperial Compliance Orders !

[MagicMan]

So thats why noone understands the motives of the Dark Angels...

[GreyCrow]

So thats why noone understands the motives of the Dark Angels...

 

The ultimate secret !

[Kaedes Nex]

Naked Sternguard are still good because the entire reason people take Sternguard are their base wargear options. If you only wanted to drop meltas or combis there are other, cheaper options. It's also why people always say "Never take non-combis on your Sternguard". Because you pay extra points for those Sternguard and their ammunition, and they are worth it.

 

If you are going to suicide your Sternguard naked, they can still crack certain targets thanks to AP3, poison rounds, combat squad thrown krak grenades, etc, but anything with an AV value or 2+ armor should probably be avoided or targeted with combi-meltas/plasma/grav.

 

Put them in a Rhino and they can make a very versatile and powerful unit, but they will be pretty pricey and won't guarantee a first turn kill like drop podded combi Sternguard do. Hopefully if you are running higher value targets in your army, they will go around unmolested, and 10 Sternguard with a Rhino can do a :cuss ton of damage over 5+ turns.

[MagicMan]

In bigger games when you have points to spare, its worth having a few Combi-Weapons on a SG squad, just incase.

 

In smaller games where points are tight, leaving them off frees up points that can be used for a dedicated melta/plasma/flamer unit.

 

 

Ive used drop-pod melta SG before, and they worked great, but for the points cost there are other options. 

 

 

All squads are 5 man :

 

Tactical + Melta + Combi Melta + Drop Pod = 125 pts

 

Sternguard + 2 Combi Meltas + Drop Pod = 175 pts

 

Command Squad + 2 Meltas + Drop Pod = 155 pts

 

LoTD + Melta + Combi Melta + Multi-Melta (All ignores cover, and they can fire the multi when they arrive, cant be intercepted either) = 155 pts

 

 

 

 

So for suicide Melta, you can go cheapest with the Tacs but be limited on the number of melta shots, or pay more for better options. For the points, the SG lose out here, really. They'll most likely get nuked in your opponents turn anyway. The LoTD really shine. With their 3++ they might even survive.

[GreyCrow]

Completely agree with Magic Man's analysis.

 

I've never really understood the idea to sacrifice sternguards as a melta suicide squad. You pay up for the special issue ammo that you won't getto use effectively.

[minigun762]

To add to Magic Man's list, dual MM speeders are cheap and Don't need to be quite as close to get the melta bonus.

[DerekLee688]

I like to take 8x stock SG in a rhino for easy mech firepower, or maybe 7x +librarian. 10x just doesn't feel like its cost effective. You don't need the full ten for special or heavy weapons, and they have a larger footprint to go with their higher price. I'd fear that would draw more fire to them because they aren't any tougher to kill.

[Kaedes Nex]

@GreyCrow and MagicMan:

 

The reason melta SG became popular was probably because the 5E popular method due to 5 point combis was 5 combi-melta and 5 COMBI-FLAMER (or 2 Heavy Flamers and 3 combis) so you could pop parking lots and Land Raiders AND flame the contents.

 

With the new SG setup and chapter tactics, it's not as feasible and so people don't really take combi-flamers these days, thus resulting in the "unefficient" combi-melta squads you are analyzing.

 

Keep in mind that melta redundancy is still a powerful and useful tool. Take, for example, the Riptide (grav also works), DPs, Wave Serpents with shields up, and the new Astra Militarum. It may be more useful to consider melta on its own merits in comparison with the newer releases and see it as a potential option for Sternguard to take, rather than to just look at melta Sternguard in a vacuum, or if you are stuck in the old Heldrake/IG platoon era mindset where plasma and ACs were better.

 

Also LotD don't come in guaranteed on turn one, don't benefit from chapter tactics, can't take transports, can't modify drop pod assault numbers, have SnP, have different stats, don't have scatter stabilizers etc, though they do get to scatter reroll and ignore cover. Hardly a good comparison if you're going to argue that LotD melta > Sternguard, as they both have their merits.

 

I like to take 8x stock SG in a rhino for easy mech firepower, or maybe 7x +librarian. 10x just doesn't feel like its cost effective. You don't need the full ten for special or heavy weapons, and they have a larger footprint to go with their higher price. I'd fear that would draw more fire to them because they aren't any tougher to kill.

 

Don't forget the usefulness of combat squadding.

[GreyCrow]

Good points Ultramarini. I'm not antagonizing the effectiveness of sternguards as a melta squad at all, because as you said, redundancy is key. As for the LOTD, in 5E, they were less point-effective than the sternguards, I agree ! 6E made them much more viable points-wise. I also agree about the guarantee of them coming in Turn 1 over the uncertainness of LOTD arriving in Turn 2.

 

What bothers me more is the idea of a suicide squad with such an expensive point value. Especially now with the increase in combi prices (twice the amount it used to cost !), the sternguards really shine with the use of their special issue ammo.

 

I have a question however about the absolute need to pop up a vehicle in Turn 1. I haven't faced so many vehicles that absolutely had to die in Turn 1 in order for me to win.

A Land Raider, for example, I don't find much scary, and if used as a transport, I'd rather have it come into my melta range. I've fought against some, and I never found their firepower to be much much impressive.

 

However, you are also right with the fact that Chapter Tactics completely changed the feel of the Codex and how Marines would perform. I'm playing Raven Guard, and their CT, especially scouts, leave me less worried about long range shooting power, because I essentially can get an extra turn or two of movement before the game starts depending on whether I am in a transport or not.