Naked sternguard veterans

[minigun762]

I think many people go with "overkill" Sternguard to claim First Blood. They are effectively trading point efficiency for +1 VP. I can't say it's a bad trade.

 

Melta is selected because vehicles are much more vulnerable to being killed in a single turn than MCs or large troop squads.

[GreyCrow]

True, but the Marines are designed to operate as a meatgrinder (not unlike the roman legions of old). They have staying power and a sure way to dispose of enemies as they come up to them.

 

First blood is something to keep in mind, for sure, and I get with the meltas are interesting. But for that, I'd rather spend 2 Tactical squads in the pods, with 2 meltas, 2 combi-meltas, and have the heavy weapons team serve as a meatshield.

 

I can see the appeal of a 10-man sternguard with their heavy flamers serving as assault defense from enemy charging them, however.

[minigun762]

I like heavy flamer but it's hard to pay points to lose access to your SIA.

 

Maybe in a Salamander army where combi and flamers are boosted. Or with Pedro to have them count as scoring.

[Kaedes Nex]

Yeah marines, especially veterans, are far too expensive to be throwing away as suicide units, but Sternguard and Ironclads are still popular suicide pod options. And they do make quite the splash on turn one, so sometimes even if they fail to make their points back, I suppose that huge first turn advantage can be worth the points spent.

 

I think like minigun762 mentioned, speeders are always complained about being too fragile, and thus everyone takes the 48" TML version, when you could just use those fragile and cheap speeders as MM/HF suicide units if the only thing you were looking for was the cheapest way to get First Blood on a tank. Although, with a unit of podded SG with combis you get a lot more options. You don't HAVE to suicide them first turn, or even suicide them at all. I'm sure veteran drop pod players will know a variety of tricks for using a mid/late-game pod coming down that doesn't involve dropping it straight on the opponent's face. I myself liked the cheap MM attack bike as a unit as they are fast and cheap and a good unit and can squadron, but a lot of 6E bike players have said they aren't worth taking nowadays, so I just assumed they were right. I know they did receive a small point increase I believe like many other C:SM options but that can't possibly be the only reason they're bad now. Maybe White Scars are just so amazing they don't need MM, but for all C:SM armies in 5E, MM bikes were amazing.

 

I think in a drop pod heavy list, you will see more people dropping tacticals and using them to carry meltas/grav and combi on the sergeant, but for non-drop pod lists they likely don't have the room, especially with allies, or prefer to keep troops not as sacrificial units, so they will use an Ironclad or Sternguard for the pod instead. Or say, some drop Salamanders list will have tacticals AND Sternguard simply because they need more meltas and flamers and pods. Since tactical marines are not exactly the most amazing troops in the game, most players I imagine would prefer to take 20-30 tacticals and 5-10 Sternguard rather than take 40-60 tactical marines, as that's a lot of points tied up in humble tactical marines.

 

The ideal suicide melta targets are either taken in such large numbers (Wave Serpents, MCs), are better handled by other means (FMCs, MCs), are very rare (Land Raiders), or are so tough the Sternguard may not even get the job done with only 3-5 melta shots (Spartans, Knights). I think this, combined with the general elite quality of power armor units is why even though C:SM is one of the top 4 books, maybe even the top book if going by player numbers, is almost entirely being played with bikers, scouts, and units other than Sternguard. It's unfortunate, but classic favorite units like LRs, terminators, veterans, jump marines, tactical marines, etc are just not the best options available ATM. Hopefully things will change in the future, but I'm having fun as it is, even if my preferred assault list is horrible for tournaments.

[Black Templar 307th Comp.]

I think many people go with "overkill" Sternguard to claim First Blood. They are effectively trading point efficiency for +1 VP. I can't say it's a bad trade.

 

Melta is selected because vehicles are much more vulnerable to being killed in a single turn than MCs or large troop squads.

This. How many points is an extra victory point worth? A victory point that your opponent can't regain (it's called first blood after all). I don't know that I can put a real value on it.

[minigun762]

The should've had another Victory condition called Retribution, for killing the unit that claimed First Blood

[GreyCrow]

First blood is really a problem in most battle conditions, because it is a break point that can swivel a game one way or the other.

 

In my games we usually negate that, by having kill points VP in all scenarios most of the time.

[Tiger9gamer]

I do agree that there should be something to counteract this. Maybe a "Last Laugh" VP where the last person who kills a unit before the game ends gains a VP.

 

 

anyways what other ideas are there for sternguard builds?

[minigun762]

 

anyways what other ideas are there for sternguard builds?

Besides naked and combi spam?

Probably dual heavy flamer is the only other stand out.

Three other SG can use ignore cover rounds to assist the damage from two templates.

With Salamander CT, you're wounding T3 97% of the time.

[GreyCrow]

Talking about heavy weapons on the sternguard builds, I am currently going to play a 1000-1100 points game tonight, and I plan on having a large sternguard squad. Unfortunately, 2 models on them have heavy weapons, and my group's rule about counts-as is that as long as you have a weapon of the appropriate type, you can play it as another weapon of the same type. Thus, heavy weapons won't count as boltguns with special issue ammunition.

 

Bear in mind that I am using the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, hence giving me the ability to operate a scout move and redeploy 6 to 12" (if I'm in a transport), before the first turn.

 

My sternguard loadout so far :

2 heavy weapons, 2 combi-plasma, 2 combi-meltas, 1 combi-flamer, 3 regular sternguards. I also have a Rhino/Razorback.

 

What should I go for with the heavy weapons ? I had a few idea so far :

- 2 multi-meltas, the idea was to use combat squads with the following :

1) MM/MM/CP/CP/Regular, located in the middle ground and standing back.

2) CM/CM/CF/Regular/Regular, scouting forward in a Razorback with an Assault Cannon.

 

- 2 Heavy Flamers, the idea was to keep the sternguard as one squad in the Rhino and move forward.

 

- 1 multi-melta and 1 heavy flamer, with combat squads :

1) MM/CP/CP/Regular/Regular, as a 2nd line firebase, most likely defending against MCs/and vehicles coming in.

2) HF/CF/CM/CM/regular, scouting forward in the Razorback with Assault Cannon and hunting the threatening enemies.

 

Because I use the Raven Guard Tactics long range weapons are not interesting, so I will only use the Multi-Melta or the Heavy Flamer. Which would you recommend ?

[GreyCrow]

Sorry for necroing the thread, but I'm very tempted to run a 5 man Sternguard squad in a Rhino/Razorback in a 2000 points list and I wondered what were the most interesting options to go for, comparatively :

 

5 naked Sternguards in a Las/Plas Razorback

 

5 Sternguards with 4 combi-plasmas in a Rhino

 

5 Sternguards with 4 combi-grav in a Rhino

 

5 Sternguards with 2 combi-melta and 2 combi-plasma/grav in a Rhino

 

They'll have more of a fire support role than a suicide unit, so no Drop Pods. I run with Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, so the scouting transport yields effective results with a 24" move possible between deployment and the first turn. In addition, the point cap is 195points.

 

I feel that Sternguards are a little too specialized for infantry and like any Marines they lack the damage output against 2+ targets, hence the AP2/AP1 weaponry either on them or the transports.

[Black Cohort]

Personally I think combi-weapons are over priced. Keep the sternguard cheap, use hellfire rounds again 2+ save targets, a terminator squad doesn't like making a lot of saves because eventually ones appear. A Naked 5 man sternguard squad in rapid fire range will on average cause 5.6 wounds to any target with a toughness value is they use hellfire rounds. Not necessarily your best anti 2+ unit but Combined with fire from a tactical squad or two will probably put serious hurt on an unit.

 

For a transport a las/ plas razorback to provide some AP2/ anti-tank firepower or a rhino to keep things cheap.

[Axagoras]

I stopped using sternguard because they cost too much to run at full efficiency, aka 10 in a pod with 10 specials. I currently run a command squad or a DA company vet squad with 5 meltas for 20-30 points cheaper. only thing missing is special issue ammo which really isnt that great in my list, i have 2 tfc for ignores cover, vengance causes .11 more wounds per model then a melta gun, and hellfire is only really better vs a wraithknight then melta

[knife&fork]

The SIA is very good, but you really need that 10-man squad before you start to make enough of an impact. 5 combis can be dangerous to anything, but it's a lot of points for 5 wounds of power armor that you'll likely put in a high risk situation. 

 

For a 5 man I would go with dual specials or dual heavy weapons of some kind. 

[Knight of the Raven]

I was thinking about a eight-man squad with two heavy flamers in a drop pod with a terminator chaplain. It's mostly because I think it's cool than for actual efficiency though.

 

And call me dumb, but what is SIA?

[Jacinda]

And call me dumb, but what is SIA?

An Aussie jazz singer.

Other than that, I haven't a clue.

[knife&fork]

Special

Issue

Ammunition 

 

In other words, all those fancy bolter rounds.