Astra Militarum Orders - Take Aim

[Dam13n]

What are the chances that, should the rumoured updated rulebook be true, the Precision Shot rule is moved from the Character section to the USR section?

 

What are the chances that this is addressed in the upcoming FAQs?

 

Just speculating...

 

Regardless, I'm sure the intent is that the affected models have the same chance of scoring a precision hit as a character.  Rolling a 6 to-hit, unless it's a snap-shot or blast/template weapon.

[stinkenheim]

But then why is it worded almost the same as the rules for illic nightspear and eldar pathfinders who both wield sniper rifles and one of which is a character.

It means illic has a pointless rule because he already would access precision shot on rolling a 6 due to IC status and wargear.

The only way it makes sense is that he, pathfinders and models subject to 'take aim' allocate every wound they cause from shooting regardless of what they rolled to hit.

There is nothing in the rules for the order that say they need to roll a 6, simply that they cause precision shots. I don't see it as being a 'rules lawyery' way of reading it, just a way that follows the simple wording of the order.

[Raeven]

Agreed, I think (if I read it right).

 

Until told otherwise, I'll be playing it as the squad can cause precision shots, but they need that 6 to-hit to do so.

 

 

Yep.  The difference is, the squad has the Precision Shot USR, which as I noted, includes the hit on a 6.  Illic and Telion both have specific wording that makes all of their shots Precision Shots.

[Seahawk]

No, the Precision Shot effect (it's not a USR...yet) only comes up after the roll to hit, not before it.

 

Illic and Telion bypass the 6 requirement and go straight to Precision Shots, regardless of what they roll to hit. However, they as models do not have any Precision Shot special rule.

 

 

There is nothing in the rules for the order that say they need to roll a 6, simply that they cause precision shots.

Incorrect. They do not cause Precision Shots, they have the Precision Shot special rule, which, as shown, means nothing because it doesn't exist.

 

Yet.

[Raeven]

As I said, it is a USR in digital editions.

 

You can still interpret it either way. This my first inclination is only on 6's but I won't argue if my opponent judges it differently.

[cypherthefallenangel]

"Take Aim"

"The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, all models have the "precision shot" special rule."

 

No where does it say that a roll of 6 grants Precision shot. 

 

From the glossary section of the codex AM.

"Precision shots:

Wounds from precision shots are allocated to the model/models of your choice in the target unit, as long it is with in range and line of sight of firing model rather than following the normal rules for wound allocation. This means that wounds generated from precision shots can be allocated to special weapons and even characters! 

A character that has wounds allocated to it can still look out, sir.

Snapshots, weapons that scatter or dont roll to hit can not be precision shot."

 

This order is pretty self explanatory. ALL shots made by the ordered unit, that aren't snapshots, template, or blast ARE precision shots, not only rolls of 6. 

I think you are overreacting trying to nerf the order. AM isn't Tau or Eldar or even close to what they are power wise. I for one will be using the order as it was clearly written and intended to be used.

[Raeven]

Not arguing personally to nerf anything. Just basing my interpretation of the rule on the resources at my disposal. It's good to know that the AM book gives a clear USR entry for the rule and settles the debate.

[Fibonacci]

I don't have a Space Marine codex to chek but does it have a glossery like most of the new codices?  Scouts and sniper rifles should function the same way.

 

[edit]

Nope.  Never mind.  The Sniper special rule is different.

[Seahawk]

 

ALL shots made by the ordered unit, that aren't snapshots, template, or blast ARE precision shots

Again, no. This is not what is being said. The models have the Precision Shot special rule, not their shots. Unfortunately, we don't know what it means when a model has the precision shot special rule. Does it mean they need 6's? They're all auto?

 

It isn't defined in the ebook either; that "Precision Shots" is merely the exact same explanation as in the BRB of what precision shots are, not what the Precision Shot special rule is. Note the "s", as it's a vital difference that causes this whole problem.

[Heru]

They are trying to nerf it because the paper version of Codex AM doesn't have a glossary to explain what Precision Shot is. Thus they are trying to shoehorn the character precision shot activator into the rule under the pretence of "common sense".

 

Seahawk try using what you preach, and stop trying to bend everything around so you are right.

[Seahawk]

Uh, I do, every single game I play. I generally go for the less-broken/powerful approach so that when it's inevitably explained/FAQ'd away, I'm not rage quitting over something so minor. Indeed, I usually end up getting the happy pants when they decide to rule it the other way and make it super powerful.

 

I'm bending nothing. I'm merely explaining that your words have no basis in the rules and are an assumption of how they interact.

 

The RAW is that it doesn't work at all. It needs fixing. The RAI can go either way. How are you all-knowing in what the writers intended?

[Gentlemanloser]

E-codex special rule for precision shots makes it work.

 

For e-codexes only mind you.

 

And we keep seeing more and more of a divide between physical and electronic products...

[Fibonacci]

It would be nice if they did not use the same words for the name of the rule and its effect.

 

I am starting to see it as written in the BRB.  Precision Shots may not be in the special rules section, but it is a special rule any model of the Character type has.  If you want to know how a model with the Percision Shots special rule works, see page 63.

 

So ... Precision Shots as a rule: rolls of 6 get the Percision Shots effect.

Precision Shots an an effect: allocated to any model the attacker can legally hit in the unit.

 

I wanted to keep an open mind (read wanted all shots to get the rule) but I just can't accept that now given that a model with the special rule is detailed in the rulebook.

[Seahawk]

@GML: I've explained why that also is not the case.

 

@Fibonacci: Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have all shots be auto-choose. I just don't see how it can be possible. No model or weapon in the history of the game has had "Precision Shot" as a special rule. It doesn't exist. Going back to my very first post on it, it's a special effect that occurs when certain models roll a 6 to-hit. Since that's the only way it's described, declaring otherwise (when it could possibly be right, though there's no valid way it can be) just doesn't fly with me.

[Heru]

Since that's the only way it's described, declaring otherwise (when it could possibly be right, though there's no valid way it can be) just doesn't fly with me.

But that isn't the only way it has been described.

 

From the glossary section of the codex AM.

"Precision shots:

Wounds from precision shots are allocated to the model/models of your choice in the target unit, as long it is with in range and line of sight of firing model rather than following the normal rules for wound allocation. This means that wounds generated from precision shots can be allocated to special weapons and even characters! 

A character that has wounds allocated to it can still look out, sir."

Besides it is the only way it makes "sense", when you factor in the pistol relic that can only be taken by characters who already have the ability to get precision shot through the roll of 6.

[stinkenheim]

 

 

Since that's the only way it's described, declaring otherwise (when it could possibly be right, though there's no valid way it can be) just doesn't fly with me.

But that isn't the only way it has been described.

From the glossary section of the codex AM.

"Precision shots:

Wounds from precision shots are allocated to the model/models of your choice in the target unit, as long it is with in range and line of sight of firing model rather than following the normal rules for wound allocation. This means that wounds generated from precision shots can be allocated to special weapons and even characters!

A character that has wounds allocated to it can still look out, sir."

Besides it is the only way it makes "sense", when you factor in the pistol relic that can only be taken by characters who already have the ability to get precision shot through the roll of 6.

Likewise illic nightspear and pathfinders who all have sniper rifles and yet are given a rule that all of their shots ate precision shots.

There are several areas of precedence that say a model can precision shot without needing a 6 to hit.

It seems that those wanting the order to be a 'on a 6 to hit models have precision shot' keep saying no one else gets it as standard and have consistently ignored the fact that illic (an IC with sniper rifle) has a rule that all his shots are precision shots. If 'precision shot' required a 6 to hit then it would be a redundant rule as being an IC he would already have it, likewise being armed with a sniper rifle would see him access it that way.

I genuinely don't see any other way to play it than all models get auto precision shots as that's how it is written

[Seahawk]

There's a huge epic massive difference between:

 

"This model has the Precision Shots special rule"

 

and 

 

"All of this model's shots are Precision Shots."

 

 

The first is broken and just plain doesn't work because the rule stated doesn't exist. The second one works precisely as the "pro-auto-precision" describes. Unfortunately, the first is in the book, hence the problem.

 

 

But that isn't the only way it has been described.

Yes, it is. The Precision Shots rule says what precision shots are, not how you get them. How you get them is either by being a character or having sniper and rolling a 6. This hasn't changed, whether in the ebook or BRB.

 

Precision Shot as a singular special rule still hasn't been described. 

[stinkenheim]

How models who don't have 'precision shot' as a rule get them is by rolling a 6 or using a sniper rifle.

I still maintain that if the model has the rule it circumvents the requirement of a 6 to hit.

If the wanted it to need a 6 then they could simply have said 'on a 6 to hit the shots have precision shot' not just 'they have precision shot'.

But hey, different strokes for different blokes I suppose.

I know how I'd let my opponent play, wonder when (if) it'll get FAQed...

[Seahawk]

 

How models who don't have 'precision shot' as a rule get them is by rolling a 6 or using a sniper rifle.

Correct. Because of how it's all worded, models/weapons that DO have "the Precision Shot special rule" are unplayable, because we just don't know how to resolve this interaction unless we make stuff up.

 

 

I still maintain that if the model has the rule it circumvents the requirement of a 6 to hit.

Once this is shown to me in the rules I'll relent quite happily. Until then, it's just wishful thinking at best, dangerously slippery rules bending at worst.

 

 

This is where my gaming group has decided to err on the side of caution and just go with 6's. Not by my persuasion; I initially said it was auto-precision, but then got the rules explanation as to why that's not the case, hence my current position.

[Fibonacci]

Not that I expect much but I just sent an email to askyourquestion@games-workshop.com asking about this one.  Once upon a time that email address was responded to within a day or two at most but I have not asked them anything in a long time.

 

[edit] 

This is the most unclear rule so far.  I kow how I read it but I can surely see the other point of view as well.

 

Maybe this is like the 5th ed Necron codex and the special rule will be in the next edition rule book. ;)

[stinkenheim]

Knowing GW, they will think because they added a bit in a digital publication that they don't need to address it at all... Le sigh.

[Grey Mage]

Alright, people are getting snippy.

So, were closing this for a few days. Expect it to open up friday night or saturday morning, depending on your time zone.