Inquisitor Kravin Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Hi EveryoneI'm obviously in a wondering mood today. I was just thinking about 2nd Founding Chapter Masters - who have we seen, who do we think we might see, who would we like to see?Seen alreadyAlexis Polux - Imperial Fists / Crimson FistsSigismund - Imperial Fists / Black TemplarsTulian Aquila - Ultramarines / Doom EaglesAmit "The Flesh Tearer" - Blood Angels / Flesh TearersBjorn the Fell-Handed - Space Wolves / Space Wolves (does this count, when the Legions were reclassified as Chapters did the chapter that continued the Legion name count as 2nd Founding?)Would like to see:Just as Tulian Aquila got a part in Honour to the Dead I'd like to see Lucretius Corvo (Ultramarines / Novamarines) get at least a bit part in a Shadow Crusade related story.Also, Demetrius Katalfaque Imperial Fists / ExcoriatorsSpeculative:I haven't read Scars yet but based on Brotherhood of the Storm I could see Shiban Khan's Brotherhood (Storm name, eagerness to fight orks) becoming the Storm Lords with Shiban Khan as first Chapter Master.I think in Know No Fear the 6th Company was described as having a chapter badge that sounded very like the Iron Snakes symbol and Captain Saur Damocles survived that novel at least. He or one of the other members of the company mentioned may be the first Chapter Master of the Iron Snakes. Branne Nev's Raptor Company of the Raven Guard probably became the Raptors 2nd Founding Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289711-2nd-founding-chapter-masters-in-the-heresy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevatar Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Raldoron is the the Blood Angels Chapter Master after the Heresy. I hope Corvo gets a part. His role in destroying the Warlord Titan in IA 10 sounds awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289711-2nd-founding-chapter-masters-in-the-heresy/#findComment-3655828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterofMankind Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I would also speculate that Corswain becomes the Dark Angels 1st chapter master. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289711-2nd-founding-chapter-masters-in-the-heresy/#findComment-3655830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Might of seen the first chapter master of Scythes of the Emperor in Unremembered Empire and Revuel Arvida from Scars, might be the first Blood Ravens Chapter Master. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289711-2nd-founding-chapter-masters-in-the-heresy/#findComment-3655837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Dantioch could be the first Silver Skulls Chapter Master? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289711-2nd-founding-chapter-masters-in-the-heresy/#findComment-3655842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFeeder Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Fafnir Rann of the Imperial Fists becomes the First Chapter Master of the Executioners, but apparently the Executioners are a 3rd Founding chapter according to their own records. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289711-2nd-founding-chapter-masters-in-the-heresy/#findComment-3655870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Iron-Father Autek Mor, along with his Morragul Clan, probably became the Red Talons Chapter (and Chapter Master). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289711-2nd-founding-chapter-masters-in-the-heresy/#findComment-3655877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Raldoron is the the Blood Angels Chapter Master after the Heresy. I hope Corvo gets a part. His role in destroying the Warlord Titan in IA 10 sounds awesome. Of course! Funnily enough I thought of Raldoron but discounted him on the basis that Blood Angels weren't 2nd Founding they were 1st, then did a U-turn when I thought of Bjorn! I would also speculate that Corswain becomes the Dark Angels 1st chapter master. I don't feel I've seen enough of the Dark Angels to speculate much but of the characters I have seen Corswain would definitely be the most likely. Might of seen the first chapter master of Scythes of the Emperor in Unremembered Empire and Revuel Arvida from Scars, might be the first Blood Ravens Chapter Master. Interesting. I haven't seen that one yet. I started Unremembered Empire then realised I needed to double back and read Mark of Calth first. I thought Scythes of the Emperor were a much late founding but it seems it is simply unknown so could well be 2nd. I know Revuel Arvida from Rebirth but haven't read Scars yet. Looking forward to seeing more of him there. Dantioch could be the first Silver Skulls Chapter Master? Interesting notion. The livery and chapter badge definitely echo Iron Warriors but would Dantioch want to continue that tradition in the hope of honouring the loyal Iron Warriors or distance himself from it? Also, Dantioch was very rational and the Silver Skulls most notable trait is their superstition. I suppose it could be that Dantioch actually decided that there was a kind of science to warp divination and so endorsed it but still one would expect his legacy to be a doctrine of engineering and resilience. Fafnir Rann of the Imperial Fists becomes the First Chapter Master of the Executioners, but apparently the Executioners are a 3rd Founding chapter according to their own records. Like Demetrius Katalfalque he would seem a likely candidate once we get closer to the Siege of Terra. Iron-Father Autek Mor, along with his Morragul Clan, probably became the Red Talons Chapter (and Chapter Master). Interesting. That was one I hadn't heard about but a quick google of them supports your suggestion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289711-2nd-founding-chapter-masters-in-the-heresy/#findComment-3655945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Dog Studios Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I'd say that possibly the different Commanders in the Raven Guard as seen in Deliverance Lost all become Chapter Masters of their respective marines. E.g the Hawks, Raptors, Talons and Falcons. So each of these would become the Basis of a new 2nd Founding Chapter perhaps. Just another question to add on the new Chapter Masters, where are they in the Imperial hierarchy? Do they still answer to their original Primarch, or are they now considered on par with the Primarch of the original legion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289711-2nd-founding-chapter-masters-in-the-heresy/#findComment-3655965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I think those who still had Primarchs would still answer to them while serving in a joint warzone, or would be among the first to respond to a call for aid, but other than that they would have to be independent. The whole point of splitting the Legions was so no one person can hold that much power ever again, if the Chapter Masters still answer to their Primarchs it doesn't work. I do wonder how the new Chapter Masters were chosen? I think some old IF fluff implies that it was each Primarch that split their respective Legions and chose the new Chapter Masters, but surely it would make more sense for the Council of Terra or Guilliman to pick Chapter Masters from those senior officers that are most independent of their Primarchs, and the least likely to be at their beck and call. Amit for one, he seemed to be a lot more independent than any other Blood Angel. Sigismund also, by where we are in the HH series it seems that him and Dorn are estranged to say the least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289711-2nd-founding-chapter-masters-in-the-heresy/#findComment-3655980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 The whole point of the breakup was, as noted, to ensure nobody controlled such a large force in future in case they rebelled. I think in practice a Primarch still outranked a Chapter Master. Just as at Armaggedon the other Chapter Masters looked to Dante and without hesitation declared him supreme commander as first amongst equals, in a Post-Heresy campaign involving say the Imperial Fists and the Crimson Fists Pollux would defer to Dorn as senior commander without question. The key point is that by giving chapter masters autonomy they gave them the power to say no. Pollux would always defer to Dorn on joint operations but in a situation like the battle at Phall instead of obeying a message from the Primarch no matter the cost Pollux could decide that as the commander in theatre he could view the order as a request not an unquestionable command and make his own judgement as to how best to respond.If another Primarch was corrupted then instead of feeling that it was their duty to follow, no matter the cost, each chapter master could decide to follow or not.My understanding was that the Primarchs chose the split themselves. I don't think that they'd bow to the authority of the High Lords of Terra and whilst Guilliman was willing to force his brothers to split their legions even he wasn't quite rash enough to insult them by telling them how to do it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289711-2nd-founding-chapter-masters-in-the-heresy/#findComment-3656063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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