Is the HH a little bit too... diluted?

[SvenONE]

I had no idea what 40K was in 2008 when my co-worker first recommended the series to me.  Knowing I was a fan of sci-fi dramas he told me to start right at the beginning.  I remember I had come across PDFs of them and was painstakingly reading them on my HTC touch pro at the time.  The first paper back I bought to read was actually Legion.  I went back and bought all the physical copies because I loved the series so much.

 

For awhile I remember awaiting each next release and check BL's website fairly often.  New books every few months! Excellent! But then the audio dramas starting showing up, and the anthologies, and then the one-offs like Outcast Dead or Nemesis.  I used to go to BL every few months to see what was new with the HH but now find myself going to less and less.  In fact right now the "new titles" page doesn't have a single upcoming release other than a reminder for something in May (going to guess another anthology).

 

At this point I feel a little overwhelmed by the underwhelming options that are out there.  After all, just look at what IS out there.  These books, for me at least, are just too all over the place.  For me, a lot of these books are entertaining, but I find myself less interested in getting them when they release or even deciding to read them out of order seeing as how it is starting to mean very little what order you read them in after a certain point.  For my money First Heretic was the last concrete solid book the series had.  Don't get me wrong, there were entertaining books since then, but it feels like they've been written for the sake of writing them.

 

The problem is we KNOW where this is all going, we KNOW how this story ends so it's about telling the story to get there.  I have no problem hearing about the stories in between, provided they give me someone or something to care about.  I think to some degree the feature of Guilliman in the more recent books has brought a sort of central arc back to the series, but historically he's not really a part of the heresy...  I won't say the series has gone downhill, there's still some entertainment to be had, but I think it's lost a little bit of steam and luster.

[Wade Garrett]

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

Everyone (Edit: Almost everyone. American educational system yo) knew how "The Untouchables", "Spartacus", "Valkyrie", "Braveheart", "Band of Brothers" and "Titanic" were going to end (SPOILERS: They get Capone, the Romans win, Hitler lives, William Wallace dies, the Allies win, and the boat sinks) but no one has ever criticized those franchises for it.

[Marshal Loss]

Simply put, they're milking it for what it's worth. They know the Ultramarines have a huge fanbase, so they throw out lots of novels about Ultramarines despite them traditionally having a role in the Heresy., etc. The audio dramas/short stories that they throw up are more impulse buys, them taking advantage of the digital market.

 

(For the record, I love the Heresy)

[Conn Eremon]

You are right that it is diluted.

 

And thank :cuss ing God for that.

 

You are right, we already know how it ends. So what is the rush to get there? We know what happens, but we don't know all of the how and why of it, and we only know of the biggest few details of the overall affair, while also knowing that it was a galactic affair.

 

The whole point of this series is to fill in the absolutely and outlandishly big empty spaces in our current understanding if the Heresy. Which means books on everything, everywhere, ad infinitum. They will get to the Siege. But, quite frankly, they can take as long as they'd like.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I kind of agree. I think the central arc point is probably the biggest problem now.

 

Wade what I think he means is that while the stories are neat if you like faction A if you aren't a huge fan of them then they are a bit blasé. I'm not a massive Alpha Legion fan. I liked the book plenty and it was well written and even had some good "ohhhhhh" moments. Still it wasn't a huge I needed to know that thing. I've recently gone back and reread the series in order and still the first four are the ones that really clench it for me. I loved First Heretic but if I hadn't been looking at doing CSM I wouldn't have paid near the same amount of attention to detail.

 

We all know that its going to end on Terra. Been talked about forever, but seeing lesser characters within a series arch were really what did it for me. I had no idea who Loken was prior to the stories. I'm pretty sure that's the case with most people. Now there seems to be so much focus on Primarchs, I don't think this is bad for the Primarchs who aren't fleshed out in Lore already, but the first three obviously had "side" characters acting more as the main characters "watching" the heresy unfold.

 

Fear to tread, also a good book, didn't grab me like the others because it was more Sanguines with his side characters having a paragraph here or there. I know the Angel looked like an angel and was very psychic and honorable etc. Leave most of the Primarchs to our imagination. Give me side plot with "human" characters how did the rememberancers feel...........what did lowly Captain So and so think of the Lion chasing Kurze all over space?

 

Just my opinion. I see what he means. None of them are "bad" but they don't grab and excite as well as some of the early ones.

 

DoC

[Dam13n]

The novels I enjoy from the series are the ones that flesh out the characters.  Especially the Primarchs, getting to see little nuances of their characters that we had no inkling of before is a very cool thing.

 

I'd have preferred more of a prelude, with more depth going into the subtleties of each legion's corruption than we've got.

 

Which may happen anyway.  Whose to say that we won't see more retrospectives and prequel books that do just that.  The Black Library has 18 huge legions to flesh out and a story that began way before Istvaan and persists beyond the siege right up to the present 40k setting.

 

The potential for creating more and more novels and short stories and audio books etc. etc. is immense.

 

They could have told the main story arc over ~6 books from Istvaan to the Death of Horus and been done with it.  But it would have been brief and lacking in detail, which would have done very little for (arguably) the most defining historical moment of the 40k setting.

 

What does get confusing at times is that we find ourselves jumping around the timelines across various story arcs with few meeting points to fix things.  Although unremembered empire did try to pull a few things together (and managed to reveal Lord Smurf Almighty to be a filthy traitor ;) )

[Perrin]

I don't really feel as excited about the HH as I used to. I think the main reason is the audio books and short stories that are released so often now, as well as the Limited Edition novellas. It used to be that I would read every HH book that came out, eagerly awaiting the next one, but now because there are so many audiobooks/shorts/LEnovellas out there that I know I will never buy, or can't buy, I don't feel as connected to the storyline.

The new Scripts may help address this I guess, and more Garro goodness

I guess it also depends on whether you like each novel as well. I enjoyed AE greatly, but I know a lot of people didn't, so that may impact how they see the series overall. I really wasn't a fan of Vulkan Lives or the second half of UE, and Scars was only ok, which obviously impacts how excited I am for the next novel.

It's probably better to look at it as a collection of single books, rather than the series as a whole.

[Marshal Rohr]

I would've felt better about it if they'd been more organized at the beginning. It looks like the regular meetings have helped bring story lines closer together, but it also is quite frustrating that audio dramas and e-shorts are being churned out at the expense of getting more stuff from the movers and shakers (ADB, Abnett, McNeill, Kyme, and Swallow). 

[Komrk]

Personally I like how expansive they have made it. It shows just how big the Heresy was and a lot can happen in seven years. The only major problem I have is keeping timelines straight because I've gotten out of order because of a binge buy which means I completely forgot about Prospero Burns until after I finished Unremembered Empire and I couldn't get my hands on Vulkan Lives so that's on my list. I mostly avoid the LE Novellas but I'm going to be getting Ravenlord and apparently Soulforge is being released as a regular novella at the same time? So i'll be getting those. I like how they're adding depth rather than the start to finish six books. There's a lot going on in the Heresy and sometimes it gets confusing with no central story arc but I think that Vengeful Spirit should bring the story back to the "Main Character"/Antagonist of the Heresy and hopefully will set the timing of the next couple books at least.

[SvenONE]

@Wade/Cormac

 

My point was that I think they've gone a little too off in each little direction without sticking around for a little longer.  My issue with it isn't like the others that people may have; the whole "just get on with it already!".  I have no problem with the time they are taking to get to the end, I'd just like to see more developed arcs.  Prospero Burns and Thousand Sons were great as sister novels.  I think we saw similar discourse when the Dark Angels books came out in the middle of a developed story arc, those (battle for the abyss also) were breaking away to completely different time periods of the timeline, this is ok, so long as we can spend enough time there.

 

I think the Ultramarines stuff is a step in the right direction, even if you aren't a fan of the boys in blue.  But at least we're seeing some recurring roles.  John Grammaticus is always a welcome character in my eyes.  The afterword of Unremembered Empire is sort of telling, Abnett says how difficult it was to write it to encompass all of these storylines together by coordinating with the other authors.  I'd just like to see them get more concrete woven storylines together.

[Stormborn]

I'd say it is diluted too many authors some of whom really shouldn't be writing BL's premier franchise writing far too much material.  I'd rather have seen each legion get a three book trilogy 1 pre HH/Great Crusade, 1 Horus Heresy & 1 End of Heresy/Post Heresy with each legion getting a single author maybe add in a trilogy for imperial army/custodes/SOS and 1 for Adi Mech.  Short stories and novellas should have been left until after the final book in the series of trilogies has been released. 

[SteelPaladin]

You are right that it is diluted.

And thank ing God for that.

You are right, we already know how it ends. So what is the rush to get there? We know what happens, but we don't know all of the how and why of it, and we only know of the biggest few details of the overall affair, while also knowing that it was a galactic affair.

The whole point of this series is to fill in the absolutely and outlandishly big empty spaces in our current understanding if the Heresy. Which means books on everything, everywhere, ad infinitum. They will get to the Siege. But, quite frankly, they can take as long as they'd like.

This is exactly what I came in here to say.

[Conn Eremon]

SvenONE: Fair enough. There are times where I'd wish they'd stick to a certain storyline to "completion" rather than going off onto another tangent, or where I'd wish they had gone back a bit further or not quite jumped ahead so much. But it might all come down to how you approach the series. It is, technically, a series. And yet, it isn't, any more than 'Warhammer 40k' is a single series. And that's how I look at it. When I am reading 40k fluff, I'm looking at it as this whole, giant setting that I am being fed piecemeal awesome little tidbits. Some of those tidbits form bigger bite-sized chunks, like Gaunt's Ghosts. My approach to the Horus Heresy series is that it isn't a series. It's a new setting. The 30k setting. In it, I am being fed piecemeal awesome little tidbits (and, like 40k, tidbits that have gone rotten) and sometimes these tidbits form bigger bite-sized chunks, like the Ultramarine, Prospero and Dark Angel arcs.

 

Because of that, I'm not altogether bothered by their approach to it. Some structure would be nice, to put a stop to some of the contradictory information out there, but I don't need it to be structured so completely as to be more like a true series. Much like how I don't need 40k literature to be.

 

I'd say it is diluted too many authors some of whom really shouldn't be writing BL's premier franchise writing far too much material.  I'd rather have seen each legion get a three book trilogy 1 pre HH/Great Crusade, 1 Horus Heresy & 1 End of Heresy/Post Heresy with each legion getting a single author maybe add in a trilogy for imperial army/custodes/SOS and 1 for Adi Mech.  Short stories and novellas should have been left until after the final book in the series of trilogies has been released. 

 

This. This, I would absolutely hate to see happen. Far too little room to explore for each Legion. Breaks it down into a science that would just fail to satisfy.

[Plague Angel]

I think it's a mistake to think of the Horus Heresy books as a "series." It might have started out that way. But it's not a thing where every book is advancing the plot of the previous books, and where every book requires the previous books to understand it. That hasn't been true for a while.

 

Maybe Black Library realized that the books sold so well that ending it so soon would be throwing away money. Maybe they wanted to give more voices the opportunity to write in it. Maybe they felt it was being rushed too much. Or all of the above, or something else.

 

Regardless, the Heresy isn't a series anymore, it's a setting. With an enormous war happening against an enormous backdrop between enormous personalities, there will always, always be stories to tell within that frame. There could conceivably be as many Horus Heresy novels as there are Star Wars novels. And as a setting, potentially lasting forever, there's no need to go out and read all of the comprehensive whole. Some people will enjoy doing that, but since the writers and books will always be of varying quality, some people will prefer to just pop in on a favorite writer, or a favorite Legion, or maybe a favorite campaign like Calth, just like some people only read the New Jedi Order books, while other people only jump in on the Legacy of the Force here and there, while others keep up with the entire Expanded Universe.

 

I see that while I was typing this Cormac went and made the same point, but I've spent the time typing this so I'm going to post it still.

[Stormborn]

 

SvenONE: Fair enough. There are times where I'd wish they'd stick to a certain storyline to "completion" rather than going off onto another tangent, or where I'd wish they had gone back a bit further or not quite jumped ahead so much. But it might all come down to how you approach the series. It is, technically, a series. And yet, it isn't, any more than 'Warhammer 40k' is a single series. And that's how I look at it. When I am reading 40k fluff, I'm looking at it as this whole, giant setting that I am being fed piecemeal awesome little tidbits. Some of those tidbits form bigger bite-sized chunks, like Gaunt's Ghosts. My approach to the Horus Heresy series is that it isn't a series. It's a new setting. The 30k setting. In it, I am being fed piecemeal awesome little tidbits (and, like 40k, tidbits that have gone rotten) and sometimes these tidbits form bigger bite-sized chunks, like the Ultramarine, Prospero and Dark Angel arcs.

Because of that, I'm not altogether bothered by their approach to it. Some structure would be nice, to put a stop to some of the contradictory information out there, but I don't need it to be structured so completely as to be more like a true series. Much like how I don't need 40k literature to be.

I'd say it is diluted too many authors some of whom really shouldn't be writing BL's premier franchise writing far too much material. I'd rather have seen each legion get a three book trilogy 1 pre HH/Great Crusade, 1 Horus Heresy & 1 End of Heresy/Post Heresy with each legion getting a single author maybe add in a trilogy for imperial army/custodes/SOS and 1 for Adi Mech. Short stories and novellas should have been left until after the final book in the series of trilogies has been released.

This. This, I would absolutely hate to see happen. Far too little room to explore for each Legion. Breaks it down into a science that would just fail to satisfy.

Unlike of course the current situation where some legions get half a dozen novels and some legions/factions are lucky to get 1 book. The current HH series is little more than a reflection of GW sales figures for miniatures. They should cover all the legions equally or don't bother at all.

Personally I'd have rather that GW had left the HH as a fluff event the more they codify 40K's fluff the less interesting it becomes. The very success of the HH series means that BL & FW now have less time to devote to other areas of the hobby.

[Hyaenidae]

My issue with the HH books? We've lost our awe of the Primarchs. In the very first book, Loken is warned to look at horus's boots, because he would forget what he was going to say if he looked at his face. I miss that.

 

There has bee way too much "head time", seeing through the Primarch's eyes, or from their general point of view. It's removed some of the god-like feel they once had, as the authors humanize them too much to make them understandable to we mortals. I would far perfer to keep the Primarchs at arms reach, through the eyes of an Astartes or human, and retain that awe/fear of the demi-gods that we follow. Vulkan Lives and Angel Exterminatus are perfect examples of that sense of loss of awe. They are supposed to be legends, not men.

[Marshal Rohr]

My issue with the HH books? We've lost our awe of the Primarchs. In the very first book, Loken is warned to look at horus's boots, because he would forget what he was going to say if he looked at his face. I miss that.

 

There has bee way too much "head time", seeing through the Primarch's eyes, or from their general point of view. It's removed some of the god-like feel they once had, as the authors humanize them too much to make them understandable to we mortals. I would far perfer to keep the Primarchs at arms reach, through the eyes of an Astartes or human, and retain that awe/fear of the demi-gods that we follow. Vulkan Lives and Angel Exterminatus are perfect examples of that sense of loss of awe. They are supposed to be legends, not men.

 

Examples of too much head time? 

[Olis]

Unlike of course the current situation where some legions get half a dozen novels and some legions/factions are lucky to get 1 book. The current HH series is little more than a reflection of GW sales figures for miniatures. They should cover all the legions equally or don't bother at all.

 

I heartily disagree with you, brother. The thing is, some Legions haven't had the coverage so far is not because of market strategies (or at least, I don't think this is the primary reason) - it's because BL have a finite stable of writers. There's only so much writing an author can do each day. Inevitably some Legions, like the White Scars, haven't received the sort of love some members of the community would prefer. And because the series is a semi-fluid entity, it'll move as best it can to each Legion as the over-arcing story progresses.

 

Personally I'd have rather that GW had left the HH as a fluff event the more they codify 40K's fluff the less interesting it becomes.

 

Again, I disagree. You cannot know how excited I was when the announcement came that BL would be covering the Horus Heresy - it was as if Christmas had come early. I thought of the possibilities such a series could achieve with all of the small tidbits trickled to us over the years. 

 

The argument that the Heresy should have been left alone was one not only older than the Series, but one I made personally until I stopped to think just why I thought that. I didn't, to be honest. I was just parroting the opinion of someone else (not that I'm saying you are). When I began to examine what I stood to gain or lose with a HH series, I realised that knowing more instead of less is a good thing. Ignorance is not really something to be admired or espoused (even if it is in the 40k setting... but that's besides the point). Yes, certain aspects might have lost their lustre because of their portrayal(s) but the wealth of information this series has provided is, at least to me, cause for a revivification of interest in the hobby.

 

So could it be boiled down to lustre and wonder vs new information? Heart vs Mind? Emotion vs Intellect? Lore vs Fluff? Probably. Arguably. Maybe not. Maybe it's an oversimplification. Maybe I'm overthinking this. This is a very long winded way of saying 'I disagree'.

 

What with later editions of 40k perhaps putting a foot wrong here or there, going back in time ten thousand years (like some pseudo-nostalgia trip) felt good. The setting was different, yet the same. The landmarks and waystones of the Imperium are still there, but there's a new slant on it. 

 

The very success of the HH series means that BL & FW now have less time to devote to other areas of the hobby.

 

Now, there I can agree with you. Because the HH is such an obvious cashcow, regardless of whether it's perceived as such by, well, anyone in the community, it's something that deserves attention for several reasons (money being the most obvious one). But, the way I see it, the finite amount of writers GW can employ (linking into my initial point) means that if the HH takes the lions share of the time and effort BL (and FW) then by default other aspects of the setting (like 40k) will receive less input. It's just the way things are, unfortunately.

[Plague Angel]

I'm halfway through Promethean Sun at the moment. But compare that to Horus Rising and Betrayer, to pick two books that gave me a big appreciation of their focused primarchs.

 

In Horus Rising and Betrayer, I had to learn about and try to understand Horus and Angron through the eyes of Loken and Khârn. That gave a lot of the weight of impact, because I only ever got their impressions of the primarchs. Their intuitions and understandings, and while as sons of their primarchs they have particular insight I wouldn't, I'm a step removed.

 

In Promethean Sun, I'm spending an awful lot of time in Vulkan's head, and (so far at least) I'm seeing the Pyre Guard through his eyes. I'm seeing Vulkan's intuition of their facial expressions, I'm getting Vulkan wondering what the Pyre Guard are thinking and feeling, I'm getting Vulkan's impression of what the Astartes under him are feeling. Basically the opposite of the above, in other words.

 

It's a different approach, not necessarily the wrong one. But I know which one I prefer.

[Hyaenidae]

Perty and Fulgrim hanging out in Perty's dreams. Vulkan bumbling about Curzes' super-prison of doom, talking to shadows. I'm at work right now, but I know there's a bunch of others.

 

Once in a while, it's ok. Horus's mind trip when he was injured was acceptable, as it set the stage for his fall. Other times, though, it feels like we're seeing through their eyes because "30k ist wunderbar, ja!", not because it adds to the story. I miss the gravity that a Primach's entrance into the story would cause. The absolute awe you, as the reader, felt, when one went to war against the enemy.

 

It's a bloody galaxy at war. I'm kind of tired of the same 19 demi-gods getting all the screentime, and their complex minds being dulled down to "super strong men who are tall".

 

EDIT: Bloody hell, Plague Angel said it better.... :P

[Plague Angel]

EDIT: Bloody hell, Plague Angel said it better....

17th April, 2014. I'll remember this day.

[Wade Garrett]

I disagree.

 

Let's take Know No Fear as an example. We're very much at arms length from Guilliman throughout the novel, and (to this reader, at least) the overall impression given is one of a marble statue carved to personify pseudo Roman stoicism that speaks in action movie cliches.

 

("Whatever does not kill me-isn't trying hard enough...Lorgar of Colchis, I will find you, I will kill you, I will cast your toxic corpse into the mouth of Hell.")

 

Compare Betrayer and Unremembered Empire . The description of Rob as he takes on Lorgar and Angron...there's a man under all that dignity and reserve.

 

He sweats, he bleeds, he mourns, and regardless, he doesn't back down. Not from Hell itself. Mr ADB, I am impress.

 

And then, UE. I don't know if it's because we spend more time in Rob's headspace, if Guilliman feels free to let the mask of Emotionless Dignified Hero Guy drop when he's not in a combat zone, or if Dan Abnett just took the character in a new direction, but as of this book the Avenging Son is my favorite loyalist Primarch, with a strong shot at challenging Lorgar, Angron, and Curze for the spot of Favorite Primarch full stop.

 

Also, I found the sections in False Gods and The First Heretic where the Mournival and Argel Tal swoon over Horus and Lorgar almost physically painful.

 

You're soldiers meeting your commander or sons standing before their father. Not pre-teen girls confronted by a sparkling Robert Pattinson.

[Hyaenidae]

Your Father, not just your commander. I found their adoration (to say swooning is ridiculous) of their father, within a Legion that is passionate and, frankly, emotional, to fit their nature perfectly. I felt Argel Tal's love and dedication. I experienced Lorgar's sadness through his son, as he sacrificed their flesh to newfound Gods.

 

My favorite examples can both be found in The Crimson Fist. I could feel the tension and barely suppressed fear in the air when the Iron Warrior Warsmiths discussed the nature of their foe trapped in Phall with Perturabo, and felt the cold emanating from Perturabo's psyche through his sons' eyes. I felt Berosuss's fear twinned with his adoration of his Father as he knelt before him. I felt Sigismund's sorrow as he willingly broke the heart of his father, and Dorn anger and disappointment.

 

All of this was without looking behind the eyes of Gods made flesh. Such actions steal away from their character, who should have never been made characters.

 

I do not need to see the thoughts of my mother to know why she loves me, or why she's angry at me, or why she raised me as she did. I know all these things, simply because I understand. Nothing more needs to be said.

[Scribe]

Its a pretty fine line I think, but for the most part I have few issues with the Primarchs in the books, and even less in the game. 

[Wade Garrett]

Your Father, not just your commander. I found their adoration (to say swooning is ridiculous)....

Horus walked between them, smiling and bathing them in the force of his personality. He stood before Aximund and the effect was intoxicating.

 

Horus had always been a being of supreme majesty, whose beauty and charisma could bewitch even the most stoic hearts.

 

As he met the Warmaster's gaze, Aximund saw that his power to seduce was beyond anything he had experienced before, and he felt shamed that he had questioned this luminous being.

 

What right did he have to ask anything of the Warmaster?

-False Gods, p. 372

 

I stand by 'swooned'. And in between bouts of dry heaving I contemplate whether or not Aximund has a bedazzled Lupercal poster in his weapons locker. Probably yes.

 

The World Eaters mutilated themselves in Angron's image, Talos, Sevatar and Sahaal loved Curze, Guilliman's captains revere him, and that's all well and good.

 

But all this fanning themselves as eyes turn dewy and knees weaken in the Primarch's presence? That can go to the Warp and burn for all eternity.