Is the HH a little bit too... diluted?

[Conn Eremon]

Your Father, not just your commander. I found their adoration (to say swooning is ridiculous) of their father, within a Legion that is passionate and, frankly, emotional, to fit their nature perfectly. I felt Argel Tal's love and dedication. I experienced Lorgar's sadness through his son, as he sacrificed their flesh to newfound Gods.

 

My favorite examples can both be found in The Crimson Fist. I could feel the tension and barely suppressed fear in the air when the Iron Warrior Warsmiths discussed the nature of their foe trapped in Phall with Perturabo, and felt the cold emanating from Perturabo's psyche through his sons' eyes. I felt Berosuss's fear twinned with his adoration of his Father as he knelt before him. I felt Sigismund's sorrow as he willingly broke the heart of his father, and Dorn anger and disappointment.

 

All of this was without looking behind the eyes of Gods made flesh. Such actions steal away from their character, who should have never been made characters.

 

I do not need to see the thoughts of my mother to know why she loves me, or why she's angry at me, or why she raised me as she did. I know all these things, simply because I understand. Nothing more needs to be said.

All that is well and good, but I don't think that was what Wade was speaking of.

 

It was more how being in their presence was like being sucker punched by the sun while the earth holds your arms back, only to take a low blow the instant your eyes meet.

 

Which I liked, but have become more attracted to their current descriptions.

 

Edit: Probably should have refreshed the page before posting after realizing I hadn't done that almost an hour ago when I had meant to.

[Hyaenidae]

When you have a genetic, and potentially psychic (considering the backlash from Sangy's death), link to your demi-god father, I can excuse feeling wobbly in front of them.

 

I'm afraid we will not see eye to eye on this, brothers. I honour and respect you both for your insight, but in this case, I stand firm and deny such madness.

[Conn Eremon]

And that is it. Demi-God. When that was how I thought of them, that way of describing them worked for me. The more we see of them, though, the less I am seeing them that way. They are still far more than man, but at the same time they are less. And it almost feels like the authors agree, because that whole blinded by the light thing has become less and less prevalent as the books go on.

[Hyaenidae]

I guess that's my problem. I enjoyed being blind to their more mundane human flaws. I liked that the loyal primarchs were akin to archangels, and the traitors like broken monsters. Making them human-ish just feels..... wrong.

 

Ignorance is bliss, eh?

[Marshal Rohr]

I just like it when Perturabo stays seated as the Imperial Fist boarding party makes it to the foot of his throne before he kills everyone. He wasn't even bothered by it. Was it a threat to him? Yes it was. Was he going to lose sweat over it, or was he going to do something about it? He did something about it. He did exactly what needed to be done, when it needed to be done, with nothing else in between.

 

That is how Primarchs should act. I didn't particularly enjoy (and normally skip) the Guilliman vs Assassins scene. I didn't enjoy reading about Primarch bullet time. It would've been better for me, but bad for readers, if instead of Guilliman-time thought processing, if we had been given 'Guilliman quickly grabbed a bust of his dad and beat everyone to death with it by the time the last Legionaries magazine was empty, then realized several rounds had hit him in the chest and he would require some stitches, and it kind of stings'.

 

Its cool, like Heathens said, occasionally to see inside the Primarchs head. Perturabo's dream of being a civil engineer, Lorgar's journey in the eye, Magnus' swimming in the Warp, etc. A few of the occasional, pivotal moments where only the Primarchs point of view could explain something. Otherwise we get Horus' fall to chaos (aka Im going to burn down the Imperium because I didn't get a statue), Fulgrim doing the junk-tucked, Buffalo Bill dance in his room in front of the Daemon Painting, and Magnus telling everyone exactly what is going on in his head while sort of being aloof.

[Scribe]

I think the Psychic link thing cannot be disregarded. Its likely part of the reason that feeling doesnt exist with Angron, as the Nails either prevent or stunt such things as he is more broken than the rest.

 

As the HH goes on, we see Astartes begin to second guess their Primarchs, doubts begin to form as their world views are shaken, or in the case of some of the Traitors, they begin to look past the glamour's, and into the Warp itself, to the source.

 

We also have to consider it possible that the Primarchs can mask their power, as per what the Emperor/Magnus (I believe) does.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

 

I'd say it is diluted too many authors some of whom really shouldn't be writing BL's premier franchise writing far too much material. I'd rather have seen each legion get a three book trilogy 1 pre HH/Great Crusade, 1 Horus Heresy & 1 End of Heresy/Post Heresy with each legion getting a single author maybe add in a trilogy for imperial army/custodes/SOS and 1 for Adi Mech. Short stories and novellas should have been left until after the final book in the series of trilogies has been released.

This. This, I would absolutely hate to see happen. Far too little room to explore for each Legion. Breaks it down into a science that would just fail to satisfy.

Unlike of course the current situation where some legions get half a dozen novels and some legions/factions are lucky to get 1 book. The current HH series is little more than a reflection of GW sales figures for miniatures. They should cover all the legions equally or don't bother at all.

 

Personally I'd have rather that GW had left the HH as a fluff event the more they codify 40K's fluff the less interesting it becomes. The very success of the HH series means that BL & FW now have less time to devote to other areas of the hobby.

I believe it is inaccurate to say it is a reflection because look at the crap ton of Night Lords model builders running around. And they've yet to get a full-blown novel, just one novella. Everything else has been cameo appearances or "villain of this episode".

[A D-B]

 

SvenONE: Fair enough. There are times where I'd wish they'd stick to a certain storyline to "completion" rather than going off onto another tangent, or where I'd wish they had gone back a bit further or not quite jumped ahead so much. But it might all come down to how you approach the series. It is, technically, a series. And yet, it isn't, any more than 'Warhammer 40k' is a single series. And that's how I look at it. When I am reading 40k fluff, I'm looking at it as this whole, giant setting that I am being fed piecemeal awesome little tidbits. Some of those tidbits form bigger bite-sized chunks, like Gaunt's Ghosts. My approach to the Horus Heresy series is that it isn't a series. It's a new setting. The 30k setting. In it, I am being fed piecemeal awesome little tidbits (and, like 40k, tidbits that have gone rotten) and sometimes these tidbits form bigger bite-sized chunks, like the Ultramarine, Prospero and Dark Angel arcs.

 

Because of that, I'm not altogether bothered by their approach to it. Some structure would be nice, to put a stop to some of the contradictory information out there, but I don't need it to be structured so completely as to be more like a true series. Much like how I don't need 40k literature to be.

I'd say it is diluted too many authors some of whom really shouldn't be writing BL's premier franchise writing far too much material. I'd rather have seen each legion get a three book trilogy 1 pre HH/Great Crusade, 1 Horus Heresy & 1 End of Heresy/Post Heresy with each legion getting a single author maybe add in a trilogy for imperial army/custodes/SOS and 1 for Adi Mech. Short stories and novellas should have been left until after the final book in the series of trilogies has been released.

 

This. This, I would absolutely hate to see happen. Far too little room to explore for each Legion. Breaks it down into a science that would just fail to satisfy.

 

 

The current HH series is little more than a reflection of GW sales figures for miniatures.

 

The thing is, that's almost the polar opposite of what's happening. The most popular Space Marine armies are, by far, the Blood Angels, the Space Wolves, and the Ultramarines. Which are three Legions firmly among those with the least exposure. Some writers very much seem to prefer not writing about the big-selling miniatures, while other writers have had to fight in the past to get anywhere near them, and at no point does anyone from GW ever sit at the table and say "You guys should do X because of sales..."

 

I'm not debating the wider points going on in the thread (beyond giggling at the swooning) but this specific point needed a bit of a kick, because it's demonstrably false.

[Plague Angel]

If anything, the popularity of the Space Wolves and Ultramarines seemed (from the outside) to lend to the rarity of their appearances in the HH books, and give it significant weight.

 

In my area, Prospero Burns and Know No Fear were both big freaking deals, with tons of anticipation behind both. Know No Fear sold out at both my local GW and B&N. The general consensus was "finally."

 

I know my local area is a small anecdotal segment, but if popularity alone was the driving factor, half the Heresy would be through the eyes of the Ultras.

 

I'd rather the writers gravitate towards the legions they care about, even if that leaves some legions out of focus for now. That leaves room for other talent to make their showing in BL, and the alternative would be some sort of quota system. Instead of artist authors, you'd have a bunch of staff writers assigned to Legions they don't care about just because it was that Legion's "turn."

[Kol Saresk]

Know No Fear was kind of a big event all around. GW even did that whole "Go into your local store and reenact the battle of Calth!"

 

Now that I think about it, I think that was the first clue given to us that all of Ultramar would be a battlefield and it wouldn't just be Word Bearers and Ultramarines fighting.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

In regards to the swooning in the presence of the Primarchs, it got really old, really fast for me when the HH books first started up and I'm glad it's tapered off some. I also think there's some reasons for that tapering off:

 

1) The dynamic has changed in some instances. Take the III Legion, for example. Fulgrim and his Legion were lauded for their martial perfection and the only ones blessed with the name and icon of the Emperor himself. Once they fell to Chaos, the gulf between the Primarch and his marines lessened because they had all been empowered by the warp.

 

2) Some of the Primarchs hated all the fawning and didn't want their marines treating them like that.

[Plague Angel]

The Primarch head-space thing distracted me from the original topic, so I went back and reread the thread. So I want to go back to some things I disagree with.

 

First, the idea that the books are diluted from too many authors. I couldn't disagree with that more; I briefly and casually alluded in both my posts to "more voices." This gets back into the idea of series vs. setting, really: a series needs tight focus and a unified, if not singular, vision driving it. Dresden books don't just need Jim Butcher, but they need Jim Butcher to be in Dresden-mode. A multitude of authors can make a series feel scattered.

 

But like I said, the Heresy is a setting, not a series; you'll never convince me that more writers joining the line is anything but positive. The setting and the stories in it are much too big for any one writer's voice to dominate the entire setting. Sure, some writers will always be better and worse than others. But even in the hands of someone talented, it would just feel wrong if every Heresy novel was written by Abnett and only Abnett. I don't exaggerate when I say I'm thrilled every time I see a new name in gold in those little black boxes. However many good HH authors there are, there will always, always be room for more perspectives on the event.

 

I'm so convinced of that, I got long-winded, so I'll stop there before the post gets any bigger.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

I like the broad scope. My only issue is keeping track of and obtaining the stories. If people are willing to pay a premium for limited editions with fancy covers then it's good business sense to produce those versions but produce a regular unlimited version for those of us who don't constantly watch for such items and can't attend any event. Offering advance copies of books at events is fine but making them event only is frustrating.

 

Recently someone on a forum mentioned something that I didn't recognise. Turned out they were referencing the anthology "The Imperial Truth" which was an event only item. If BL stuck it on their website now in a regular edition I'd hand over my money but instead they don't offer me the opportunity to give them my money and leave me trying to fill in my understanding from material online.

[SvenONE]

The Primarch head-space thing distracted me from the original topic, so I went back and reread the thread. So I want to go back to some things I disagree with.

 

First, the idea that the books are diluted from too many authors. I couldn't disagree with that more; I briefly and casually alluded in both my posts to "more voices." This gets back into the idea of series vs. setting, really: a series needs tight focus and a unified, if not singular, vision driving it. Dresden books don't just need Jim Butcher, but they need Jim Butcher to be in Dresden-mode. A multitude of authors can make a series feel scattered.

 

But like I said, the Heresy is a setting, not a series; you'll never convince me that more writers joining the line is anything but positive. The setting and the stories in it are much too big for any one writer's voice to dominate the entire setting. Sure, some writers will always be better and worse than others. But even in the hands of someone talented, it would just feel wrong if every Heresy novel was written by Abnett and only Abnett. I don't exaggerate when I say I'm thrilled every time I see a new name in gold in those little black boxes. However many good HH authors there are, there will always, always be room for more perspectives on the event.

 

I'm so convinced of that, I got long-winded, so I'll stop there before the post gets any bigger.

 

 

I think the more Authors the better also.  I don't think it's the Author's diluting the series, I just think it's that we're getting small bites of individual pieces of a meal without ever getting to sit down and eat the whole thing.  I think the author's just need to own a little more real estate in each section.  Let's face it there are a lot of characters that people like in all of these books, and they are only seen once.  I know I've got my list.  It's just that because I know BL doesn't seem to be in the practice of developing full story arcs outside of the individual novel.  It's just hard to get excited when there's no guarantee of seeing those characters again and the next book will be something completely different.  Especially when the Anthology/Novella route seems to be more common now.

[Praetor of Calth]

I almost posted a similar thread yesterday, but my beef with the series is slightly different. What books like; "The First Heretic", "A Thousand Sons", "Fulgrim" and the original trilogy did so well is that hey really set the scene for the Heresy. Throughout these books we, the reader, are constantly wishing the HH wouldn't happen and that has really been lost from the series as of late. While we still have some good books like "Scars" and "betrayer" coming out, some like "Angel Exterminatus" just fail to convey that sense of tragedy in the series. The first 30 books of the series should have been something like this; (Heck we'd even be at the same point in the series.)

 

1: Horus Rising

2: False Gods

3: Galaxy in Flames

4: Flight of The Eisenstein: Except with other point of view characters following the DG's fall.

5: A Thousand Sons

6: Prospero Burns

7: Mechanicum

8: Iron Warriors Novel: Scouring of Olympia, Horus turning Peturabo, Diamat. Book ends with IW heading for Istvaan V. (Setting the scene, Isstvaan V was a huge event it deserved a big buildup!)

9: Night Lords Novel: Curze vs Dorn incident, razing of home world, Night Lords go renegade, contacted by Dorn that Horus has turned traitor. Curze contacts Horus and chooses to join him. (That would have been a cool twist imo.) Novel again ends with the Night Lords heading for Isstvaan V.

10: Legion

11: Iron hands Novel: More on Ferrus and how bionics are damaging the legion, conversation with Fulgrim. Ferrus enraged.

12: Fulgrim

13: The First Heretic

14: Raven Guard Novel: Deliverance lost plot line with no face wearing Alpha Legion. If AL must be included, look at the Index Astartes depiction.

15: Vulkan Lives

16: Ultramarine Novel: Calth, ends with Guilliman releasing he may have to found a new Imperium.

17: Blood Angel Novel: Signus. Ending with the Blood Angels arriving in Ultramar.

18: Dark Angels book: Dark Angels learn of the war, engage the Night Lords in the Thramas Crusade. Ending with the Lion heading for Ultramar.

19: Scars

20: Betrayer- With a few flashbacks between Angron + Horus to emphasize the fall even more perhaps?

21: Master of Mankind- Look at Terra, Dorn, Imperial Fists, Custodes, Emperor etc;

22: Unremebered Empire- Same but with no Curze involved. There are plenty of other villains in there that would have worked just as well. E; The Gal Vorbrak, Daemon, the Alpha legion gave up after one try? Huh? Maybe even Sevatar could have escaped.

23: Angel Exterminatus- But with no Iron Warriors, let it be the Emperor's Children novel it was.

24: Alaxaes Novel: See Space Wolf actions in Vengeful Spirit + more on the battle before the unexpected ally helps them escape.

25: Vengeful Spirit

26: The Crimson King- Magnus turns traitor.

27: Tallarn. As a book not this 3 part novella [insert word of choice]

28: Raven Guard Novel: Again as a novel not 3 part novella.

29: Shattered Legion Anthology- Shows what the Shattered Legions have been up too.

 

See what I mean, the Heresy series would be the same length, we'd be up too the same point, but the amount of build-up and tension to the main events is huge in comparison. Books like "Battle for the Abyss" and "Nemesis" could be made into Novellas to show the sheer scale of the war, although the series is improving again I can't help but think what if? Heck with "The Crimson Fist" and 'Prince of Crows" now being released separately that just gives more weight to the idea!

 

 

 

 

[Chaeron]

I like how expansive it is. I don't bother with the audio dramas personally - and would rather wait until most of the eShorts are collected later (if not, already!) - but it's superb. As a series, beats nearly any other. Love it - great to see so many different approaches to the same subject matter, telling things that have yet to be filled in. 

 

Long may it continue!

[evilmittens]

I almost posted a similar thread yesterday, but my beef with the series is slightly different. What books like; "The First Heretic", "A Thousand Sons", "Fulgrim" and the original trilogy did so well is that hey really set the scene for the Heresy. Throughout these books we, the reader, are constantly wishing the HH wouldn't happen and that has really been lost from the series as of late. While we still have some good books like "Scars" and "betrayer" coming out, some like "Angel Exterminatus" just fail to convey that sense of tragedy in the series. The first 30 books of the series should have been something like this; (Heck we'd even be at the same point in the series.)

 

1: Horus Rising

2: False Gods

3: Galaxy in Flames

4: Flight of The Eisenstein: Except with other point of view characters following the DG's fall.

5: A Thousand Sons

6: Prospero Burns

7: Mechanicum

8: Iron Warriors Novel: Scouring of Olympia, Horus turning Peturabo, Diamat. Book ends with IW heading for Istvaan V. (Setting the scene, Isstvaan V was a huge event it deserved a big buildup!)

9: Night Lords Novel: Curze vs Dorn incident, razing of home world, Night Lords go renegade, contacted by Dorn that Horus has turned traitor. Curze contacts Horus and chooses to join him. (That would have been a cool twist imo.) Novel again ends with the Night Lords heading for Isstvaan V.

10: Legion

11: Iron hands Novel: More on Ferrus and how bionics are damaging the legion, conversation with Fulgrim. Ferrus enraged.

12: Fulgrim

13: The First Heretic

14: Raven Guard Novel: Deliverance lost plot line with no face wearing Alpha Legion. If AL must be included, look at the Index Astartes depiction.

15: Vulkan Lives

16: Ultramarine Novel: Calth, ends with Guilliman releasing he may have to found a new Imperium.

17: Blood Angel Novel: Signus. Ending with the Blood Angels arriving in Ultramar.

18: Dark Angels book: Dark Angels learn of the war, engage the Night Lords in the Thramas Crusade. Ending with the Lion heading for Ultramar.

19: Scars

20: Betrayer- With a few flashbacks between Angron + Horus to emphasize the fall even more perhaps?

21: Master of Mankind- Look at Terra, Dorn, Imperial Fists, Custodes, Emperor etc;

22: Unremebered Empire- Same but with no Curze involved. There are plenty of other villains in there that would have worked just as well. E; The Gal Vorbrak, Daemon, the Alpha legion gave up after one try? Huh? Maybe even Sevatar could have escaped.

23: Angel Exterminatus- But with no Iron Warriors, let it be the Emperor's Children novel it was.

24: Alaxaes Novel: See Space Wolf actions in Vengeful Spirit + more on the battle before the unexpected ally helps them escape.

25: Vengeful Spirit

26: The Crimson King- Magnus turns traitor.

27: Tallarn. As a book not this 3 part novella [insert word of choice]

28: Raven Guard Novel: Again as a novel not 3 part novella.

29: Shattered Legion Anthology- Shows what the Shattered Legions have been up too.

 

See what I mean, the Heresy series would be the same length, we'd be up too the same point, but the amount of build-up and tension to the main events is huge in comparison. Books like "Battle for the Abyss" and "Nemesis" could be made into Novellas to show the sheer scale of the war, although the series is improving again I can't help but think what if? Heck with "The Crimson Fist" and 'Prince of Crows" now being released separately that just gives more weight to the idea!

Now I wish you were an editor at the BL.  I do not really feel the HH is diluted and think its been, and still is, a great setting/series.  I just like the ocerall structure you present.

[SteelPaladin]

I like the broad scope. My only issue is keeping track of and obtaining the stories. If people are willing to pay a premium for limited editions with fancy covers then it's good business sense to produce those versions but produce a regular unlimited version for those of us who don't constantly watch for such items and can't attend any event. Offering advance copies of books at events is fine but making them event only is frustrating.

 

Recently someone on a forum mentioned something that I didn't recognise. Turned out they were referencing the anthology "The Imperial Truth" which was an event only item. If BL stuck it on their website now in a regular edition I'd hand over my money but instead they don't offer me the opportunity to give them my money and leave me trying to fill in my understanding from material online.

BL has been on a kick lately of offering limited, then regular editions of everything. I would bet large sums of money(or resin) that the stories from The Imperial Truth will show up sooner rather than later; in either an e-book or regular anthology with additional stories. Probably both.

[Plague Angel]

Right, yeah, everything else. That's the other thing I wanted to talk about.

 

Short stories, audio dramas, novellas, and anthologies.

 

I'm pretty passionately against the idea that any of the above are less valid or less worthwhile than novels. Different art forms are simply that, different art forms. Personal taste may mean that some people like novels most, and that's fine, and I can't say a lot about someone else's personal taste. But I will note that shorts are the perfect way for those new authors I'm so keen on to get their feet wet and contribute to the setting and prove to BL that they can handle it.

 

Aside from that, though, I think people are misunderstanding the way the opportunity cost works, for some reason. I'm going to lean pretty heavily on ADB here as my example -- not because he's my favorite or because he posts here, but because his blog makes his methods and habits fairly transparent.

 

So we know that, like a lot of authors, ADB has problems with deadlines, and we know that there are a lot of things he wants to write that he isn't able to, just because he's one person who can't write multiple things at once. The book we now know is going to be The Talon of Horus has been discussed for years now. BL told him he had to finish The Emperor's Gift first. If ADB writes X hours a week, that's X hours a week he has to spend on Emperor's Gift and not spend on Talon. And then after that, every hour he spends working on Talon is an hour he spends not working on a Night Lords Heresy novel that features Talos, Vandred, and Tenth Company when they actually were Tenth Company. I'd preorder that novel if it existed, in every format it was offered in likely. But that's just me as a fan; such a novel may never exist, because ADB has a lot of things on his to-write list and he has to prioritize which, if any, he gets around to actually writing. Simple logistics of one person needing to eat, sleep, and only physically being able to type one project at a time mean that ADB novel releases have to be spaced out.

 

But so, by the same token, if ADB's number of writing hours is already budgeted, how any other author budgets their own time is irrelevant. If Chris Wraight and Guy Haley are writing audio dramas and Graham McNeil is writing short stories and Nick Kyme is writing a novella, and all this time Dan Abnett is busy writing Guardians of the Galaxy for Marvel, that doesn't affect ADB's schedule when he's in the Aaronorium. Black Library releasing short stories and audio dramas doesn't delay the novels being written. It may affect the time frame of when finished pieces are actually released, but the short formats proliferating doesn't translate to "less" novels.

 

I'm baffled that complaint is so common.

[Chaeron]

I almost posted a similar thread yesterday, but my beef with the series is slightly different. What books like; "The First Heretic", "A Thousand Sons", "Fulgrim" and the original trilogy did so well is that hey really set the scene for the Heresy. Throughout these books we, the reader, are constantly wishing the HH wouldn't happen and that has really been lost from the series as of late. While we still have some good books like "Scars" and "betrayer" coming out, some like "Angel Exterminatus" just fail to convey that sense of tragedy in the series. The first 30 books of the series should have been something like this; (Heck we'd even be at the same point in the series.)

 

1: Horus Rising

2: False Gods

3: Galaxy in Flames

4: Flight of The Eisenstein: Except with other point of view characters following the DG's fall.

5: A Thousand Sons

6: Prospero Burns

7: Mechanicum

8: Iron Warriors Novel: Scouring of Olympia, Horus turning Peturabo, Diamat. Book ends with IW heading for Istvaan V. (Setting the scene, Isstvaan V was a huge event it deserved a big buildup!)

9: Night Lords Novel: Curze vs Dorn incident, razing of home world, Night Lords go renegade, contacted by Dorn that Horus has turned traitor. Curze contacts Horus and chooses to join him. (That would have been a cool twist imo.) Novel again ends with the Night Lords heading for Isstvaan V.

10: Legion

11: Iron hands Novel: More on Ferrus and how bionics are damaging the legion, conversation with Fulgrim. Ferrus enraged.

12: Fulgrim

13: The First Heretic

14: Raven Guard Novel: Deliverance lost plot line with no face wearing Alpha Legion. If AL must be included, look at the Index Astartes depiction.

15: Vulkan Lives

16: Ultramarine Novel: Calth, ends with Guilliman releasing he may have to found a new Imperium.

17: Blood Angel Novel: Signus. Ending with the Blood Angels arriving in Ultramar.

18: Dark Angels book: Dark Angels learn of the war, engage the Night Lords in the Thramas Crusade. Ending with the Lion heading for Ultramar.

19: Scars

20: Betrayer- With a few flashbacks between Angron + Horus to emphasize the fall even more perhaps?

21: Master of Mankind- Look at Terra, Dorn, Imperial Fists, Custodes, Emperor etc;

22: Unremebered Empire- Same but with no Curze involved. There are plenty of other villains in there that would have worked just as well. E; The Gal Vorbrak, Daemon, the Alpha legion gave up after one try? Huh? Maybe even Sevatar could have escaped.

23: Angel Exterminatus- But with no Iron Warriors, let it be the Emperor's Children novel it was.

24: Alaxaes Novel: See Space Wolf actions in Vengeful Spirit + more on the battle before the unexpected ally helps them escape.

25: Vengeful Spirit

26: The Crimson King- Magnus turns traitor.

27: Tallarn. As a book not this 3 part novella [insert word of choice]

28: Raven Guard Novel: Again as a novel not 3 part novella.

29: Shattered Legion Anthology- Shows what the Shattered Legions have been up too.

 

See what I mean, the Heresy series would be the same length, we'd be up too the same point, but the amount of build-up and tension to the main events is huge in comparison. Books like "Battle for the Abyss" and "Nemesis" could be made into Novellas to show the sheer scale of the war, although the series is improving again I can't help but think what if? Heck with "The Crimson Fist" and 'Prince of Crows" now being released separately that just gives more weight to the idea!

 

The idea of there still being more build up to Istvaan almost makes me want there to be retconning and releases and perhaps a rejig of the chronology following this. Really interesting and well thought out!

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

*snip*

The thing is, that's almost the polar opposite of what's happening. The most popular Space Marine armies are, by far, the Blood Angels, the Space Wolves, and the Ultramarines. Which are three Legions firmly among those with the least exposure. Some writers very much seem to prefer not writing about the big-selling miniatures, while other writers have had to fight in the past to get anywhere near them, and at no point does anyone from GW ever sit at the table and say "You guys should do X because of sales..."

I'm not debating the wider points going on in the thread (beyond giggling at the swooning) but this specific point needed a bit of a kick, because it's demonstrably false.

'X' ?!

Ah well, I tried

[Veteran Sergeant]

My issue with the HH books? We've lost our awe of the Primarchs. In the very first book, Loken is warned to look at horus's boots, because he would forget what he was going to say if he looked at his face. I miss that.

 

There has bee way too much "head time", seeing through the Primarch's eyes, or from their general point of view. It's removed some of the god-like feel they once had, as the authors humanize them too much to make them understandable to we mortals. I would far perfer to keep the Primarchs at arms reach, through the eyes of an Astartes or human, and retain that awe/fear of the demi-gods that we follow. Vulkan Lives and Angel Exterminatus are perfect examples of that sense of loss of awe. They are supposed to be legends, not men.

I've said it before, but I miss the gravity of the Primarchs. Where what they did mattered, and their clashes were usually fatal for one of them. 

 

Now all they do is get in cartoon fistfights, with one or both sides being dragged off to fight another day. It's... boring. 

 

 

There's definitely also a tremendous overuse of the Primarchs. They are everywhere, and nothing seems to happen without them, no matter how unlikely or illogical. Books like Outcast Dead weren't great, but it showed that the actions of the Primarchs were shaping the galaxy, but that the Legions and the Imperium were made up of individuals. There are so many stories, so many potential characters, and we just keep seeing a tiny handful of them. And really, the biggest problem is that it's becoming increasingly silly.

 

 

I don't know if I ever had a problem with the series expanding. And expanding doesn't inherently dilute a series. But it's definitely stagnating. Nothing happening in any of the books feels like it has any weight or significance. It feels like exactly what it is. Extending the profitability of the license. It will be amusing if at some point somebody decides to make an time-lapse map of where every character is at different points of time and how they bounce around the galaxy.

[Perrin]

Definitely agree with the point about the Primarchs. It was interesting at first to see things from their eyes, but now they're too open. Horus in the first book, or Mortarion in Crimson Fist, that is how a Primarch should be. They're demigods, other beings should be in awe of them, and so should we as the readers.

 

I don't think it is a huge point, it's never spoilt a book for me, but it would have made more of an impact when Primarchs come into stories than it does now.

I think ADB has already said that Master of Mankind isn't from the Emperor's POV (I think?), which imo is great. It would be nice to see certain decisions explained further from his perspective, mainly so he doesn't look like a colossal boob, but there should be no attempt to humanise him or to give him any sort of personality that readers can empathise with. I think that's what Malcador is for really, a human counterpoint to the Big E so readers can feel more connected to the duo, but still have the Emperor as a distant figure that we can't really hope to understand.

[Machine God]

*snip*

The thing is, that's almost the polar opposite of what's happening. The most popular Space Marine armies are, by far, the Blood Angels, the Space Wolves, and the Ultramarines. Which are three Legions firmly among those with the least exposure. Some writers very much seem to prefer not writing about the big-selling miniatures, while other writers have had to fight in the past to get anywhere near them, and at no point does anyone from GW ever sit at the table and say "You guys should do X because of sales..."

I'm not debating the wider points going on in the thread (beyond giggling at the swooning) but this specific point needed a bit of a kick, because it's demonstrably false.

'X' ?!

Ah well, I tried

NO! Be Careful BL will only do another RetCon on the 10th in 30K! They're even know taking away The Tank Battle from us!

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

*snip*

The thing is, that's almost the polar opposite of what's happening. The most popular Space Marine armies are, by far, the Blood Angels, the Space Wolves, and the Ultramarines. Which are three Legions firmly among those with the least exposure. Some writers very much seem to prefer not writing about the big-selling miniatures, while other writers have had to fight in the past to get anywhere near them, and at no point does anyone from GW ever sit at the table and say "You guys should do X because of sales..."

I'm not debating the wider points going on in the thread (beyond giggling at the swooning) but this specific point needed a bit of a kick, because it's demonstrably false.

'X' ?!

Ah well, I tried

NO! Be Careful BL will only do another RetCon on the 10th in 30K! They're even know taking away The Tank Battle from us!

I dunno, I mean, I know where you're coming from - the Raukaan supplement means I will almost certainly never return to the IHs as a 40k Chapter. However, Massacre has set a fantastic framework codifying the 10th Legion's nature - which is basically the only real cannon for the Iron Hands as a Legion - there's no way any of the BL team would retcon the lore it has set down.

Besides, the BL HH series isn't about recanting the organization and nature of the different bodies within the Imperium, its about telling stories through the eyes of a host of different characters during the horror of the conflict. They are subjective takes on the events, and may conflict in their message because they are each from a number of different viewpoints. If you disagree with the content of a BL book, you can argue that the stance of the narrator distorted its content - as has been said before, BL books are all cannon, despite contradictions that may occur - because they are each imperfect accounts.

Whilst the FW HH books are categorically the most accurate sources of information on the 30k era, BL books are interesting because they are about characters and relationships, not the minutia of a Legion's structure and practices. That's why I'd like to read a book about the 10th Legion, as well as what it became after the Massacre. This is especially true now that Massacre has been released; because previous BL books have portrayed members of the 10th Legion almost identically to their 40k counterparts, whereas with the background the FW books has given us, there is a huge gulf between what they were and what they become (at least, in reference to the older, far better representation of the Iron Hands Chapter).

Here's a list of reasons I think a BL book based around the 10th Legion would be interesting:

*It would be a great opportunity to paint a picture of how different an individual IH Legionary would be to an IH Adeptus Astartes - how their attitudes might be different before the Legions are divided into Chapters

*It would be fascinating to have the interactions of the different Clans explored - their diversity & competition - which under Ferrus strengthened the Legion, but after his death effectively accelerated its fragmentation

*It'd be really cool to see how their relationship with the mechanicum works - previous books have included really cool interpretations of the mechanicum, and the X Legion effectively recruits from pseudo-mechanicum tribals

*Seeing how the Legion unravels in light of the betrayal of Horus's forces would be really interesting - seeing as some of their closest allies would turn traitor, and how their brutal and uncompromising outlook was undoubtedly closer to those of the traitor Legions than the loyalists

*I'd also really be interested in different interpretations of Ferrus - generally, they seem to have been far more successful in BL novels in which references to him are very small - Fulgrim & Feat of Iron from the Primarchs anthology both portray him as something of a fuming idiot, which may have been slightly true during the Massacre, but was generally at odds with the calculating, brutal and savagely efficient warlord Massacre details. It would be especially interesting to see his power relationships with the other Primarchs, given that it has now been revealed that earlier in the Great Crusade he was used in a command role over later discovered Primarchs and their Legions.

Trust me, I'm as wary as you in light of the Raukann supplement - but with Massacre set as a flawless foundation for further books to build on, I'm cautiously optimistic.

In terms of Tallarn, there's actually relatively little fluff on the battle, and current chatter suggest the Iron Hands formed a primary wave of reinforcements for the Imperial Army during the conflict. So I wouldn't condemn it yet, especially given the potential awesomeness that a future FW book on the battle might bring.