Is the HH a little bit too... diluted?

[Kol Saresk]

Yep. The fact that BL and FW are both making sure their information lines up with each other concerning the Heresy, means the Iron Hands should be safe thaanks to the efforts of Massacre.

[Artein]

I just find hard to follow what is and was being released. I was doing ok when it was just novels, maybe an audiodrama. Now we have so much of those exclusive short stories, limited novellas, ultra short stories.... I can't keep up. I'm just too old for this feth.

[Conn Eremon]

I have two Excel files just to keep track of both what has been released and what I already have, including the many formats.

[helterskelter]

everything is eventually going to be accessible, i just wait for the compendium novels so i don't have to buy all the little bits and pieces if i don't wish to. it'll all make sense in about 10 years :p

[Brother Heinrich]

I honestly feel like the series is less "diluted" and more of a giant wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey, mess. When it began it had drive, many of the novels laid the initial groundwork for those to come, I could see the story arcs forming, the plot ties, the characterization of gods and men in a time of legend. Unfortunately, bit by bit it started to lose it's way, there are now a metric ton of potential little plot points that now seemingly lead to nothing, or are just clumsily brushed over because the author of the next book along realized that whatever the other author wrote doesn't fit with his vision.

I'm re-reading the series again from the start because I love the beginning novels. I also have nothing against many different stories being told, one-offs and shorts are great and they have long been a staple of the giant fictional universe of 40k. What I hate though is when an author sets up a potentially awesome twist of fate (like someone surviving something, finding a particular item, or being given something by a trusting brother) but then either never capitalizes on it, or leaves it untouched for so long that readers have now forgotten the original significance of said event.

The Dark Angels story arc comes to mind, I really enjoyed the heck out of it, and it seemed the first two novels were fired off in rapid succession followed by...............................................................short story............................................................Unremembered Empire. Everything is starting to feel wildly disjointed. It's hoping back and forth in time and all over the map with thousands of little quirks and hints and plot points that are all getting jumbled and forgotten and cluttered with unnecessary garbage. I like the short story anthologies and really feel they have merit, however certain things like the fate of Garro, I really just do not care about. Why? Because (from what I've gathered) he has something to do with the founding of the Grey Knights, an organization that I thought was WAY more awesome when we knew next to nothing about them. Now this is just a personal opinion, but its tied to an important point that some things don't need illumination.

I feel like info we're getting on the heresy went through a Venturi tube. It was rapidly moving and focused, but now it's opened up like a shotgun blast and slowed way the F down. I no longer feel the urgency of Horus and the Traitors, the panic as the Imperium tries to defend against the coming storm of it's once-loyal sons. I now feel like we're just swimming in a big pool filled with heresy and primarchs feelings and a vulkan who keeps drowning.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's like the writers aren't interested in the HH anymore and are doing it out of necessity.

[helterskelter]

i wouldnt say that as such. its just taking a great deal more fleshing out, the final battle will probably be a trilogy or a book so thick its actually a less lethal weapon

[mc warhammer]

familiarity breeds contempt. Horus Rising understood this and contrasted Loken and Abaddon's attitudes towards Horus effectively. Negativity towards "astartes swoon" is more an effect of bad writing than a bad approach. HR's balance is perfect.

 

as an outsider, i've lost interest in the series due to inconsistent quality rather than lack of direction. i'm not emotionally invested in the setting and there's only 2 decent writers in the stable, so i started looking elsewhere for my kicks.

 

and anyone who expects the middle of a ride to be as exciting as the beginning hasn't done anything...exciting.

[Kol Saresk]

The middle part of the roller coast is the exciting part. The beginning is just a boring climb.

[mc warhammer]

See, since you posted after I edited my post you look like a crazy person. 'Rollercoasters' was unintentional, the joy of posting after my bedtime.

[Kol Saresk]

See, since you posted after I edited my post you look like a crazy person. 'Rollercoasters' was unintentional, the joy of posting after my bedtime.

Fair enough. But the point still stands that not everything that is exciting starts out exciting. Usually anything that involves "riding" becomes exciting after it builds up to the peak. motorcycles, rollercoasters, even racing. So, to say that the middle isn't equal to the beginning would be true, but to say that it is always less is not. The Heresy has its ups and downs like any roller coaster. At the moment, we are climbing the second hill, the big one, the one everyone want's to climb and then go sliding down. We are already at the halfway mark chronologically, and my estimate would be from 2015 onward, everything will be pushing towards the siege while trying to wrap up as many things as possible. So of course right now isn't like the first hill. We're still building to the climax and everything slows down for that moment, for the stage must be set lest it slides by unnoticed.

[mc warhammer]

lets say it's more like riding a rollercoaster every week.

[sitnam]

i have yet to really read Clan Raukaan, what was so terrible about it?

[Plague Angel]

It's like the writers aren't interested in the HH anymore and are doing it out of necessity.

 

See, now I'm really confused.

 

A lot of the complaints about the series losing its direction or appeal seem to come down to "too much new content too quickly" and "too many new writers." Even setting aside the fact that I view both of those things as positives, don't the prevalence of those complaints show that more and more people at BL are pushing to join their roster of Heresy writers? That's sort of the opposite of writers not being interested anymore.

[Wade Garrett]

According to the Clan Raukan supplement, after Isstvan V, Ferrus Manus turned into a Keeper of Secrets that tries to tempt the Iron Hands to be more mechanical and less emotional.

 

Daemon Ferrus is finally defeated when Not-the-Chapter Master Kadan Stronos cries out to the Iron Hands to embrace their emotions instead of repressing them, which unleashes a anti daemon rainbow magic blast of kindness, laughter, generosity, honesty, loyalty, and friendship.

 

*All of the above is official Games Workshop fluff.

[Komrk]

I have to agree with the loss of the sense of urgency among the traitors. For example in Angel Exterminatus, Perturabo just says "Hey, lets go gallivanting around the galaxy with Fulgrim because we're just waiting for orders from Horus." Horus was Warmaster and yet he can't even give orders in advance? I mean really, you were supposed to be the greatest commander of all of the Primarchs.

[Marshal Rohr]

Well the advent calendar and some of the stuff they've put out recently feels like 'Next Week on Days of the Horus Heresy'. It's not all bad stuff. I really enjoyed some the newest audio shorts compilation, others like the Khârn story, just felt as if now that A DB wrote 'likable Khârn' somebody has to do the World Eaters with a Daemon Angron on board to keep up the pace so they picked somebody. Another complaint would be Mortarion going full Chaos in Vengeful Spirit, barely weeks after a book was released where he feels like joining Horus was a mistake. So now they have to go back and color in the lines to tie that together, and then moving forward somebody else will have to start coming up with Nurgle turning everyone disgusting.

 

It's turning into Agents of Shield. We had to wait from Dark World to Winter Soldier and now we will get Avengers 2 next year, but in between we can watch these short sitcoms that sometimes explain stuff and sometimes don't explain anything.

 

Edit: More apt would be the Clone Wars series since we had the trilogy and then the clone wars filled in the space.

[Plague Angel]

I loved "The Eightfold Path", personally.

 

Listening to it resparked my interest in 40k in general, bringing me out of a hobby hiatus. It's nice to have the odd Chaos story that actually feels like part of the horror genre.

[Marshal Rohr]

I want the Horus Heresy to be a war, personally. Leave the horror esque stuff to the Word Bearers. It won't be interesting at all if it's just 40k chaos marines vs 40k loyalist marines ports fighting each other. The worst part of the older stuff was that by the time Horus reaches Terra none of the loyalists could recognize their enemy. Just personal preference. I prefer my civil wars to be wars and not all the bad guys from South Park imagination land attacking 40k space marines.

[Plague Angel]

The Dark Gods are being active with more than just the Word Bearers, though.

 

I want Chaos to feel, well, demonic. Sure there's a line between 30k and 40k, but Chaos should be an active presence in the Heresy and the fall of all the Traitors, not just hurt feelings and daddy issues.

[Marshal Rohr]

If they are going to play up the Dark Gods angle it should be a proto-version of full on Chaos. Like if the Germanic barbarians gods were actually real and have the warriors favor against the Roman legions via dark sacrifices. It grates on my nerve that the Emperors Children went from a highly accomplished military unit to orgy having- hasish smoking creep shows in the space of a symphony. I've been to a Manson concert and I didn't start wearing babies and painting in blood when I got home. Corruption shouldn't happen so quickly. No one becomes corrupted so quickly.

 

 

For example, what sounds better? If the Death Guard slowly start getting sick once they start treating with the warp, as if something sinister was growing inside them like a cancer, that finally comes out and burns it's way through their bodies like Ebola? Or they are bitten by zombie-flies and suddenly their guts fall out. One of these stories allow the Death Guard to feel pain and horror at what is happening to them, the other is an alternative version of the same zombie story we watch every Sunday or marathon on netflix.

[Plague Angel]

The Khârn story didn't do that, though. It was just Khârn realizing that the Blood God in fact exists and the World Eaters are on their way.

 

I agree that the attitudes of the Traitor Legions shouldn't be the same as the attitudes of the Chaos Space Marines. But it's the same Khorne, same Nurgle, same Tzeentch, and same Slaanesh.

[Marshal Rohr]

And they all suck equally at being remotely good antagonists. I just read the part in Ahriman Exile where he goes to see the oracle and leaves with less than he showed up with. What idiocy would make someone willingly follow that. I'm still at a loss why Lorgar didn't go into the Eye, come out, and immediately cordon it off marked for virus bombing. He didn't want to even ask what the hell he saw in there.

 

To be fair though, horror movies wouldn't be remotely entertaining if characters acted like normal people

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

i have yet to really read Clan Raukaan, what was so terrible about it?

 

 

According to the Clan Raukan supplement, after Isstvan V, Ferrus Manus turned into a Keeper of Secrets that tries to tempt the Iron Hands to be more mechanical and less emotional.

 

Daemon Ferrus is finally defeated when Not-the-Chapter Master Kadan Stronos cries out to the Iron Hands to embrace their emotions instead of repressing them, which unleashes a anti daemon rainbow magic blast of kindness, laughter, generosity, honesty, loyalty, and friendship.

 

*All of the above is official Games Workshop fluff.

 

This, also:

*There are chaplains

*The structure is effectively codex, with Clans just being honorifics for each company

*so no independant, warring clans, each with their own vets, scouts & armoury

*Iron Fathers aren't chaplian-techmarines, just a title

*the chapter now hates ferrus for some dumbass reason

*kardan stronos is definately not a chapter master, except for the fact he has been chapter master for 300 years

*the entire contuqual conflict has been retconned, which basically detroys all the content of a very good book (Wrath of Iron by Chris Wraight)

*now the iron hands are starting to think maybe bionics aren't that cool

*plus maybe brutality isn't so nice?

*also, there aren't termiators leading squads, just a standard first company

 

Basically what happened was GW turned the Iron Hands into Ultramarine clones with a bionic fetish, destroying all previous fluff, and alienating an entire group of veteran gamers who had stuck to the fantastically characterful chapter despite years of zero fluff from Games Workshop. Which left us remembering the years in which Iron Hands were constantly mistaken for Black Templars, not recognized as one of the Legions, and drifted into obscurity as the 'good old days'.

 

Unsurprisingly most of us are still fuming almost 8 months later. If it wasn't for FW, I would have turned my back on the hobby, becuase the Iron Hands I had loved for so long don't exist anymore - that chapter is gone, replaced by a pale mockery of what came before because of an executive decision without any justification. 

[sitnam]

Ah, so they got Warded. IMO, unless the older sources are explicately retconned, and this includes the recent Wrath of Iron, then I'd just stick with the older fluff. I know fluff ahouldnt work that way but thats what you get when a company has such terrible quality and IP control. As a fan of the IH and SoB's Its painful seeing this stuff happen;