Sception Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 This is why I've said slaughter shouldn't be considered obligatory. Divination is good, thematically we should have had it from the start (tzeentch marked at least), but overall it's just not amazing for us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3659987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 well I run a biker death star so it works. But even if the codex didn't have divination , it still has better relics for lords. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3660290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 22, 2014 Author Share Posted April 22, 2014 but worse for princes, so it really comes down to 'am I running lords or princes', imo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3660361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 so what are people thoughts on allied guard? I've been looking at swapping out typhus zombies and my sorcerer for a palanquin sorc, and a guard contingent, I think i can basically get yarrick and a platoon with autocannons, but dont know if its worth it for just that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3660367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 22, 2014 Author Share Posted April 22, 2014 My thoughts are I'm waiting to see what the new renegade rules in IA3 look like before I dedicate too much thought to allied guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3660368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Only thing holding me back is the sheer cost of the codecci, I picked up an old guard battleforce from a charity shop for a £5, was going to turn them into cultists but may just use them as traitor guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3660397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctus Cornix Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Curious to know what people think of this. At the current moment, our local guard player has been running a rather strange list at about 2000 points. I can't tell you the exact details, but essentially he breaks his army essentially into two platoons with 4 infantry squads and a 3 lascannon heavy weapons team in each. What he does is he simply blob squads all 40 of the guardsmen together, each with a Commissar(I think) and a ministrorum priest. Using that in conjunction with divination powers and the war hymns from the priests, he essentially makes these almost unstoppable walls that any sort of frontal attack just cannot seem to do anything against as of yet. I have not played against it yet, but I know he is utterly decimated by a Tau gunline army, and was beaten by a combat squad using blood angel who just deep striked most everything. But that being said, any other kind of force I've seen him up against so far just stops flat. (And I swear by the Dark Powers, I will flay any man who dares utter heldrake spam) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3661203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 A possessed deathstar, backed by Daemon support. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3661246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuggnuggath Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I guess if you could engineer a meeting between them and a blackmace wielder with a sufficiently large bodyguard you might be onto something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3661275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuggnuggath Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I think a command tank HQ, some vets in a Valkyrie and some barrage artillery would make a decent allies contingent. Go beyond that and you would be better off just to play guard in my opinion. Deathstrikes seem quite thematic for mad dictator types. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3661277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clone Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I think a command tank HQ, some vets in a Valkyrie and some barrage artillery would make a decent allies contingent. Go beyond that and you would be better off just to play guard in my opinion. Deathstrikes seem quite thematic for mad dictator types. This is the type of thing I was thinking of. I'm planning on a tank commander in a Vanquisher and 2 Battlecannon Leman Russes for HQ. Troops I was thinking of using my cultists as a blob of conscripts for the cheapness. Lastly I would love to have a Deathstrike for the sheer hell of it. I had considered another leman russ squadron or a wyvern battery but the Deathstrike says Chaos to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3661321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Was thinking of a psyker, a blob platoon or chimera mounted vets and a russ and/or some armoured sentinals Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3661381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother_contagion Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Watched a battle report on Frontline Gaming between Chaos and new Guard - It was disgusting. Chaos never came within 24 inches, only Be'Lakor did, but they have so much ignore cover bull**** at the moment he got fried pretty quick. Not looking good...the have a hard counter to the most things we throw at them. Pretty sure Daemons are screwed as well, shrouded means nothing when your lascannons have ignore cover. Could you give the link? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3662428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3662498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 That report shows absolutely nothing: -Bad table. -Hammer and Anvil deployement is dumb. -Bad list. -This guy has no clue about Be'lakor and why he is good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3662562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valaskjalf Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 That report shows absolutely nothing: -Bad table. -Hammer and Anvil deployement is dumb. -Bad list. -This guy has no clue about Be'lakor and why he is good. Yarp...Don't really like their style of reporting either...MWG at least shows you the progress of each turn. However, that being said...he still didnt come close to them and even if he didnt field Be'lakor properly, he still got obliterated. Pretty much giving a showcase of IG firepower and re-rolling shenannigans. Rather check out the 2nd video as well, at least it was a bit closer and Be'lakor managed to get a couple of Puppetmasters off. I think Puppetmaster was responsible for more casualties than any actual Chaos models....which again is worrisome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3662613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle captain corpus Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 I have to say I switched off as soon as I saw the Chaos player deployed cultists unsupported in cover on an objective while playing against a Hellhounds list -sigh- .......give me strength..... BCC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3662631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Makes Crimson Slaughter all that much better since they can get Divination and try for Scryer's Gaze. Not really not. This makes the Crimson Slaughter mandatory, mandatory things are not fun and speak volumes of bad design in a tabletop game. I think that the order of killing is the following: - Command Squads (to invalidate orders) - Anti-Flyer units - Tanks But the problem is that all the above is bubble-wrapped by blobs of infantry and the new Conscripts with a Priest are the hot and shiny new cultists, which actually pack a punch and have the numbers to even outclass our cheap alternative. So far I think we are low on counters to effectively fight the Imperial Guard without some tailored lists. Be it CSM or CD rely on reserved to Deep Strike many units or fly them in. So even my anti-horde tactic, aka Flamers of Tzeentch will be hard to execute since I will have a permanent debuff to my reserve roles, forcing me to waste Mastery Levels on Scryer's Gaze. But this is Tzeentch, the rest of the daemons will have an even rougher time to get on board. My fear is at this moment the following: Imperial Guard main, Sisters of Battle ally, Inquisition as detachment. This composition not only ruins all the psychic deathstars and elements of an army but has nigh no problems when comes to scouting, infiltration and deep strike units and has a massive volume of fire, with cheap vehicles to boot. All in all, things look very grim for Team Chaos. The AM is on par with the power level of the Eldar and Tau, exceeding them in some points. Now I have won battles against those armies but unfortunately it was either against not tournament grade lists or combined armies, those ripped my chaos in pieces by turn three. Add to that SM allies, Tau allies, Eldar allies, Knights and the rest of the imperial goodies and up the sudden we will see a dozen armies with massive rerolls due to the Divination from the cheap Primaris Psykers. Ah, Machine Spirit on a Knight Paladin? Does not make them mandatory, good lord this is something that can ONLY happen when you run 2k or more points. . .Other than that your reserves come on a roll of 4+, hardly game breaking. no need to overreact to stuff. What is the Paladin gonna do? Shoot his stubber at something else? Oh noes lol Comon man, stop being so dramatic. CSM were already in the poophole compared to any other 6th ed codex not named Dark Angels so just because another codex is "better" than us does not change anything. We already sucked, if you do not like playing CSM then move on :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3662981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Watched a battle report on Frontline Gaming between Chaos and new Guard - It was disgusting. Chaos never came within 24 inches, only Be'Lakor did, but they have so much ignore cover bull**** at the moment he got fried pretty quick. Not looking good...the have a hard counter to the most things we throw at them. Pretty sure Daemons are screwed as well, shrouded means nothing when your lascannons have ignore cover. Gotta take into account that the guy who played the CSM is pretty bad, I mean he willingly sat in a doorway to a unit that he knew was twin-linked, ignored cover, and had 6 plasma shots, along with a lascannon shot. . . KNOWING that unit had this, he choose to NOT move an inch less or an inch more and hide behind the wall. Just because someone gets their ass beat and rage quits (lol which he did), does not mean anything. Not saying CSM is good, but that game does not represent anything other than a bad player (Rawdogg), playing against a good player (Reece). Daemons should wreck them pretty good, just not with the Flying Circus build. A rush Daemon army would should actually hold its own pretty well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3662988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 well I run a biker death star so it works. But even if the codex didn't have divination , it still has better relics for lords. but worse for princes, so it really comes down to 'am I running lords or princes', imo. Both of you are correct. The CS Codex is beastly good for Lords and Sorcerers but weaksauce for Princes. Glad we came to an agreement =x Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3662993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Thinking of adding some AM to my CSM every so often. I was a Tanker in the military so the Tank Commander aspect of this codex is really singing to my soul :P Would run something like this. Crimson Slaughter Sorcerer *Mannon, Force Axe, Terminator Armor Cultist Cultist Heldrake Heldrake Obliterators x3 *Mark of Nurgle AM Tank Commander *Punisher w/Lascannon Hull, H.Bolter Sponsons, Relic Plating (gives his unit Adamantium Will) *Punisher w/Lascannon Hull, H.Bolter Sponsons *Punisher w/Lascannon Hull, H.Bolter Sponsons Priest Engineseer x3 Primaris x2 *ML2 Platoon Command Squad Infantry Squad w/Autocannon Infantry Squad w/Autocannon Infantry Squad w/Autocannon That is it basically. Blob gets together and the Priest, Enginseers, and Primaris all join up. Prescience for the Tank Commanders Squad mostly. Engineseers can repair weapon destroyed, immobilizations, and hull points. They also give a vehicle within 12" Power of the Machine Spirt so one weapon each will be able to fire at a different target than the model itself (hence the lascannon in the hulls). I back this up with Baledrakes and Prescienced Obliterators to help with harder targets if need be. I also have a few hundred points left over to toy with and add some more scoring as needed. I think I could do okay with this type of list and have already started talking to my local group about my "Cultists equipment requisitions has finally arrived!". The best part is that the Tank Commander's Squad could literally fire at 6 different targets :P Tank Commander Order - 1 Two other Tanks fire a weapon at a target - 2 Power of the Machine Spirt means one weapon that did not fire can fire at full BS at a different target - 3 Take that FMC lists :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3663001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 how many rules in the game require av14 tanks to have adamantium will as protection? am not saying it ain't useful , I just can't think of any right now [enemy blessings don't target them , no one uses witch fires , maledictions could be problem if someone rolls puppet , but that is like counter meta vs belfegor]. plus am not sure if runing 2 LR one being paskovichius taxi , wouldn't have been better for an all punisher set up . maybe make one of them a vanquisher or twin AC one ? also a with so many targets 3 hvy weapon teams could be an option. 3 engine seers with just 3 tanks seems over the top. 2 would be more then enough. there will tbe stuns , stuff blown up if there were chaos land raiders in the list or at least chimers 3 of engies could be explained . right now it looks like your puting a 4th helldrake in to the list[not that engis=helldrakes in power, am just talking about diminishing returns from some units]. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3663287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 how many rules in the game require av14 tanks to have adamantium will as protection? am not saying it ain't useful , I just can't think of any right now [enemy blessings don't target them , no one uses witch fires , maledictions could be problem if someone rolls puppet , but that is like counter meta vs belfegor]. plus am not sure if runing 2 LR one being paskovichius taxi , wouldn't have been better for an all punisher set up . maybe make one of them a vanquisher or twin AC one ? also a with so many targets 3 hvy weapon teams could be an option. 3 engine seers with just 3 tanks seems over the top. 2 would be more then enough. there will tbe stuns , stuff blown up if there were chaos land raiders in the list or at least chimers 3 of engies could be explained . right now it looks like your puting a 4th helldrake in to the list[not that engis=helldrakes in power, am just talking about diminishing returns from some units]. Pretty sure EVERY Flying Circus list pretty much relies on Witchfires to kill stuff :P Yes, also Puppet Master, Misfortune. There are a few other things that it is pretty useful against. However, we are debating over a 3pt piece of wargear man :P Yeah, I really like the idea of the Heavy Weapons Teams too. Just ran out of points. The Engineseers just allow me to fix my tanks and let them each fire one weapon at a different target. Makes those 10pt lascannons at least worth something since I can just have them all shoot at something that the Punishers cannot hurt. They do not give a UNIT Power of the Machine Spirit, they give a single VEHICLE Power of the Machine Spirit, so basically they are there to make sure I can always shoot those Lascannons where I need them most and to basically get three rolls a turn if needed to repair them. I agree though, diminishing returns could be an issue. I need to play and see though to be honest. I did end up changing the list though after some buddies got on me about some similar things :P Here is a link to the list I am running Saturday. Feel free to feedback me all ya want, I enjoyz it! http://www.frontlinegaming.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=991&p=7807#p7807 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3663296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 that is what am saying . you have 3 russes and 3 seers . seems overkill to me , because it brings the assumption , that all 3 LR [which kind of a build the core of the IG part of the list] will survive for a longer time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3663452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 True enough, they may die immediately, they may last all game. Flying Circus can only assault them to kill them or shoot them in the butt and even then they have a 5+ Deny the Witch. Serpent Spam can only glance side armor with their shields. I get three chances to repair them a turn. Knights can only really hurt it with the Melta version and that is one shot, I still get cover and such. Seer Council or Beast-Star ususally run Wraithknights and those are the biggest threats to them, but this list can kill one a turn on average. Very few Lascannons or Multi-Meltas in the game right now, so pretty safe vs most of the META. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289775-facing-the-new-guard/page/2/#findComment-3663872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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