Prot's Follow Up on Deathwing: The shortcomings exposed!

[Prot]

Greets,

 

This is only my second batrep of my Deathwing but before I changed up my 'deathwing' core, I had played a handful of games prior to this. But with this core I now faced Tyranids.

 

 

We played 1850 and I went with the exact same list I did before in my Cutting the Head of the Fish (Tau) report. Which can be found HERE .

 

This will be short report... more of a summary of events since the game went so horribly for me. But here goes nothing....

 

My opponent, again, was Nids. Playing some things I hadn't seen before but the gist of it was:

 

Tyranids:

 

Tyrant (twin linked Devourers)

2 x Cover granting bugs (Sorry forgot the name) x 2 squads used on the edges of the army to improve and provide cover for the whole army.

 

A squad of shooty warriors.

 

Tervigon + squad of Gaunts

 

2 x Tyrannofex's (<--- superstars)

 

1 squad of 3 Dakka Fexe's. (NASTY and cheaper than the previous version!)

 

I know there was more to the list, I'm just drawing a blank but this was the nasty stuff....

 

Scenario:

The Scouring ( multiple 'hidden' victory point markers of various values) 

We played on what I would consider a medium density to upper density table with a fair amount of Forrest units for area terrain with the odd hill, and lakes which would be difficult and provide +6 cover saves.

 

I won first turn, and we deployed along long table edges. 

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

The game:

 

+++ I really didn't know how to start this one, but to keep him guessing I decided to keep my normal reserves active, putting the Knights and Libby Termie in the LR. Crusader, and also deploying the other LR to start the game.

 

By the time he finished deploying I realized the short fall of my present Deathwing List.... It simply doesn't have enough bodies... specifically troops. All the bugs sat down on the table.

 

We remembered to show our objectives and low and behold with my two troops I could use my deep strike to the right side of the table to grab the two 3 point objectives! That's the good news since the right side of the table had virtually nothing on it.

 

The bad news is 90% of his army was on the side of the table that contained the 4,2,2,1 markers (something like that).

 

So do the math... even if my two troops live, and don't get contested, I cannot win the game. There is no way I can provide the offense necessary to push a massive, monstrous army, multi wound army off of objectives AND keep my own with this army. 

 

 

++++Early game:

I took my Deathwing assault in turn one, BOOM, Belial brought down 10 referidgerator sized buddies and sat on a 3 pointer, BOOM the 5 man squad sat on the other one. 

 

The only thing I could do here was shoot at his flank. First turn was also night fight, but my LR lit up the first Tyrannofex... but here's the second thing my army lacks... AP2 shooting. And on 6 wound dudes, this was going to be my downfall. 

 

He simply protected his right flank from all my termie shooting with the Tyrannofex's. In the meantime, the lovely Tervigon pooped out a staggering 6,5,4, roll of kids!! No lock up. Ouch.

 

Very early I realized I have to stop shooting at the Tyrannofex's and take my lumps. They absorbed an incredible amount of firepower with toughness 6, 2+ save and cover saves on my rare Lascannon (LR) shots.

 

++++The Pain Game:

The Tyrannofex's looked at my Lascannon LR and blew it apart by turn 2. The LR Crusader was destroyed by turn 3. I had failed to kill anything yet, and now my Knights and Libby were in the open! That's about about 600pts gone without doing much more than putting two wounds on a Tyrannofex and a few piddly gaunts.

 

The Gaunts kept coming, the Knights saw no other chance and rushed one of the Tyrannofex's and Smited (smote?Smoted? Smited?) the big bug to death.

 

The second they had range I took a LOT of templates, and medium strength shots... eventually the math catches up with you and  I lost a fair amount of termies.

 

I knew before the first dice rolled I couldn't win, but I wanted to make a game of it. I took Belial and squad off of his 3 pt objective and started rushing in and shooting... the shooting thanks to cover +2 saves was gross. Meanwhile I was pretty widdled down.

 

Finally the squad of 3 dakka fexes came in and the Dakka Tyrant and the squad was reduced to Belial and Hammer Shield CML Termie. I killed one fex from shooting and didn't make the assault.

 

The knights went after puny gaunts which were fed to me without consequence (it kept me pushed back, up to my armpits in rabid, hairless cats with poor hygiene.)

 

I took my 5 man termie squad into the next Tyrannofex and fisted it a few extra holes in the melon until it was down for the count. But really with such a huge lead he was just being careless with the Tyranno's. He didn't need to advance with their 48" Strength 10 shots and 2+ saves....

 

++++Endgame: 

 

I really felt the shortcomings of the base of this list. I kept thinking what could I change? What could I have played differently? Should I have been more aggressive? Should I change back to my previous Deathwing which had a sprinkle of greenwing and no LRs? And finally I couldn't help but compare what my Ravenwing could have done in this game. (I love my Black Knights)

 

The core LR's of this list are extremely expensive. Against opponents that can't handle AV14 very well they are fantastic. But when you face someone that is going to laugh at AV 14, that's a substantial part of the list down the toilet.

 

In hindsight I guess the 10 man termie squad could have broken into 2 (not combat squad I mean list wise) to give me three troops but I still was so numerically inferior I couldn't have pushed that many models back.

 

Not sure what I could do here, but I'd be lying if I didn't say my Ravenwing are tugging at me! ;)

 

Thanks for reading!

[Alvena]

it's an really interesting topic, as i also struggle to play vs Nids.

The only time i manage to do well against was with some crusader and Standard of devastation, but it wasn't a deathwing only list, it was a tri-wing list that had some RW and Greenwing and many Bolters.

 

I'm really looking for the vets advices like you.

[CovertToaster]

The trick to fighting nids with this sort of list is any LRC's target the small bugs while the termi's jump out and smite the big bugs (and it's smote not smited). Other than that you prioritize synapse bugs as instinctive behaviour has become quite nasty for nids.

 

Dakka fexes and Tfexes are dirt cheap now but with no flyrants it's not a great list. Venomthropes are about as good as they have always been but providing cover to the rest of the list is a bit of a waste as the MC's are tough enough and little bugs do a similar job. Warriors are better but still meh.

 

I think the only real threat he has for LR's are the Tfexes;  the tervigon, of course, lets him flood more troops onto the board so if you can knock those three things out early then there is nothing really left. Also DWA so you can assault his MC's especially if he is sitting on a lot of objectives.  

[Darkangeldentist]

Thanks for taking the time to write this up and share your travails.

 

Horde armies and in particular nids can be very daunting. You highlight the problems well but there are options and strategies that can see you make headway against such a foe.

 

 

Mission objectives

 

First is to remember exactly what the scenario conditions for victory are. The scouring may have 6 objectives but the only ones that matter are those that your opponent can control. Nids don't actually have that many options to get their troops across the table without engaging the enemy. Hunt down their troops and pin them in place. Tervigons make this difficult but if you can deliver a unit to the beast then terminators will kill it and the death throws can cause a respectable number of casualties to surrounding gaunts. If you must pick one objective and plant a single terminator squad on top of it to guard it and ensure some points. In the example you experienced the 5 man squad could have landed near one of the 3pt objectives and contributed shots into the smaller beasties (warriors and venomthropes first). The rest of your army must be aggressive and take out their opportunities to control objectives. Not easy I will admit but it is definitely possible against the list you faced.

 

 

Target priority

 

Make sure to prioritise your targets carefully. Against nids you want to take out the synapse first. Big bugs like the tyrannofexes look threatening (and they are) but Deathwing can take them out in a single round and if your opponent flubs their rolls or you make your saves it might not kill even a single terminator in combat. Initial threats to take down at range are the tyrant (land raider lascannons only if he is flying) tervigon and those venomthropes providing him cover. Second are warriors and gaunts. Last are the tyrannofex and carnifex. This may sound odd but despite the firepower these monsters have, they cannot take objectives and despite the benefits montrous creatures have in combat they are only WS 3 meaning you are likely to cause a lot of damage if they get into a fight. Thunder hammer and storm shields make these fights particularly one sided.

 

Since medium sized bugs such as warriors and venomthropes are T4 with multiple wounds you can instant death them out with missiles and lascannons so sometimes it's worth prioritising them as easily kills for first blood and the impact it has on making the rest of the army easier to kill in the case of the latter.

 

Don't forget that you can use split fire to more efficiently utilise your squads shooting. Being able to finish off the last wound or two on a distant unit whilst still charging what is in front of you is very powerful and essential for maximising how many targets you can tackle with your low number of units. Even your 10 strong squad with only cyclones can do this quite effectively since a couple of krak missile into venomthropes might finish the unit off whilst the other shoots frags at a swarm of gaunts or more kraks into carnifex that you intend to assault.

 

Strategy and tactics:

 

Belial's precision deep strike means that you can turn one have a giant mob of terminators in his face that must be dealt with. This is risky but can bring great rewards, you will have 4 twin-linked krak missiles to send into either his tyrant, venomthropse or warriors and good odds at making a big dent in them if not killing them outright with the help of the land raiders lascannons. By dropping your biggest unit up close, preferrably on a flank you force him to deal with them by sending stuff at them immediately instead of the rest of your force. This does however mean that you must have something come forward to counter-strike and split his attention.

 

Pick your fights carefully and don't be afraid to get bogged down for a couple of rounds of combat. Terminators are a peculiar unit for nids to face, from the nid perspective it's very risky sending the bigger bugs into combat with them due to invulnerable saves and powerfists/thunder hammers so they generally prefer to shoot them and then send in a swarm of gaunts. If you charge the gaunts he must either wait for you to wipe out the gaunt before he can start shooting you again or risk combat with a monster or two.

 

Tervigons are the spanner in the works since they can keep spawning broods of gaunts but they can run out and these creatures can be taken down with enough krak missiles and lascannon shots. It may take a couple of turns but it is definitely doable.

 

If Belial still has the majority of his retinue of hammernators you can quite safely charge into a unit of 15-20 gaunts and expect the combat to last two rounds. (Say we have 8 terminators left and there are 20 gaunts.) Because we hit the smaller bugs and monsters like the fexes on 3+ we are likely to cause a large number of wounding hits every round so long as we have a reasonable number of bodies left. Attrition will take it's toll but we are likely to take fewer wounds in combat were the nids have fewer attacks that hit less reliably than when shooting. In the example here Belial and co will kill nearly 3/4 of a 20 strong unit just from the charge. This leaves the nid player with a problem, if they ignore the combat and focus their shooting on the rest of the Deathwing Belial and co will wipe out the gaunts that turn and be free to walk off and do it all over again. Sending in more gaunts will tie you up for longer but it is still unlikely in the extreme to actually take out the terminators and pins more of the nid players troops in one place unable to capture objectives.

 

This focus on the more vulnerable weaker nids has the added side benefit of massively reducing the amount of shooting the nid player can focus on your terminators. Especially if he feels forced to assault you because the terminators are wiping out his gaunts/warriors. If (for example) the dakkafex brood charges into Belial and co who are currently fighting gaunts it means those fexes did not shoot anything that turn! Although it means that he is the one charging it does however mean that you have not had to endure his over-watch fire or being shot at before the charge.

 

 

I feel that I've written a bit too much for one post. I hope what I've said makes sense and is helpful to you Prot. Deathwing can struggle against lists with masses of fodder surrounding the important pieces but with the right tactics, plan and a bit of luck you can still come through to victory.

[Biggabertha]

First of all, thanks for the write up..! It takes a certain amount of courage to be able to report a loss and I think it's really valuable to try and assess or think of alternate options/tactics if faced with the situation again (which most of us usually do). Most of all, it was a good read too..!

 

Darkangeldentist, I think if you have anything else to add, I'd really like to hear it!

Some really good and sound logical thinking you have there: while I don't play Deathwing exclusively, I can see what a problem horde armies can be to low model count armies.

 

I think this is one of the few times, I'd wish I had Heavy Flamers or the Land Raider Redeemer. Sure... you can never (really) know what your opponent's packing but Deathwing Assaulting a pair of Heavy Flamer Terminators into a horde army seems like it could be seriously painful.

This is also one of those times that maybe a pair of Lightning Claws could really help out if you can't afford to bring in Deathwing Knights (but I'm slightly biased towards Lightning Claws...) just for more close combat attacks at Initiative.

 

I definitely agree with remembering to use Split Fire to really help out - especially if you're packing the Cyclone Missile Launcher. Rare case where packing the Plasma Cannon for that AP2 shot could come in handy.

[Dafoo]

I used to run nids back in the day. Everyone seems to have sound advice. I will admit that I was a little sad the second you said your first round of shooting went at the Tfex. Those guys in my experience are just big scary units that screen your gaunts. He probably did need to advance his gun is Str 10 AP 4 he had nothing left he could touch once your tanks were gone. Dakkafex.. was he running devourers? Because those can be great. His nods need that cover save so next time you face venomthropes kill them quick. His whole horde now has no saves against your shooting (terrain permitting). Good Bat Rep and better luck next time brother.

[SvenONE]

You are definitely experiencing the trouble that DW can have, don't feel alone in that.

 

Tyranids are a tough codex to go against, you need a lot of shots to kill the little guys, but you need a SUPER high volume of low AP shots to take out the MCs before they get close to you (easier said than done).  You did the best you could given the situation I think.  Given the small number of units, it's easy for your opponent to concentrate fire on your squads.  I've yet to crack tyranids, if it's not the little bugs overwhelming you, it's the MCs smushing you into the ground.

[Isiah]

Indeed 'Nids and Tau have always been tough match ups for Deathwing - no matter which game or Codex edition.

 

The only time DW came good against those two armies was a spell during 4th Edition when we could take two heavy weapon upgrades per squad plus upgrade to Tank Hunters on the cyclone missile launchers too, and give the sergeant a combi-flamer and auspex - all that feels like eons ago now <_<.

 

Cheers

I

[Prot]

You are definitely experiencing the trouble that DW can have, don't feel alone in that.

 

Tyranids are a tough codex to go against, you need a lot of shots to kill the little guys, but you need a SUPER high volume of low AP shots to take out the MCs before they get close to you (easier said than done).  You did the best you could given the situation I think.  Given the small number of units, it's easy for your opponent to concentrate fire on your squads.  I've yet to crack tyranids, if it's not the little bugs overwhelming you, it's the MCs smushing you into the ground.

 

Thanks I keep trying to come up with ways to adjust the list. I must have made 10 lists with Landraider and 10 more with no Landraiders (still Deathwing).

 

I'm trying NOT to go back to Ravenwing, but it's hard because I have totally smoked lists like this with my Ravenwing.

 

I'm not gonna lie with losses like this it is harder to find motivation to paint. I have 5 Deathwing Knights (beautiful models) in various states of painting. I took pictures of them before I started in hopes of adding them to the painting pact going on right now... but fizzled.

 

In my defense I've probably only played 5-8 games with these guys.