Sell me on the Iron Warriors?

[Nehekhare]

@a-d-b: it fits them like a charm. Look at the people's reactions to it: decimation is so alien to our own culture's concepts of individual efford, freedom and responsibility that many reject the very idea before even considering the background, let alone questioning the cultural standarts themselves. everybody instinctively identifies with the unlucky 1/10 and see Perturabo as a monster. This is why he became what he is and this is why the IV. legion became iron warriors.  

Cthonian criminal scum? not impossible, but difficult. Horuses befriending nature? Why would the guy that willingly speaks the miner dialect put them off so much? 

 

 

Siege of Castellax is awful.

 

you, sir, have no taste.

 

This book opened up a whole new dimension of horror for the IW, above and beyond any of the moustache-twirling comic villain that is McNeill's Hon[...]Sou[...].

[Wade Garrett]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you've read any of C.L.'s Warhammer Fantasy novels about Grey Seer Thanquol, you can tell he wrote the Iron Warriors as big hazard striped skaven.

 

Which, in my opinion, doesn't really fit the sons of Perturabo. The Alpha Legion, maybe. The Night Lords, like a glove. But not the IW.

[Urauloth]

I've been on the fence about reading castellax for a while but I haven't been able to get much information about it - at the risk of derailing the thread, what's wrong with it? I'm perplexed by the idea of iron warriors being written in a way that would better suit night lords.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Siege of Castellax, for me, had one redeeming light in the darkness, and that was the mixture of disgust and respect that Chaos Marines feel for Obliterators.  Ghost, no one can tell you whether you'll like it (I've met people who liked Battle for the Abyss, after all), so I recommend that you read it for yourself.

 

I've always felt that the Iron Warriors are the really tragic element of the Traitor side of the Heresy.  The Thousand Sons might hold the crown for "tragic heroes," but the IV Legion take the cake for "tragic villains."

 

What I mean by that is that the Iron Warriors are one of the few of the Traitor Legions that, in my mind, actually had a real grievance against the Emperor and the Imperium.  As has been mentioned several times previously, they were typecast by their brothers as the fixing force, the distraction, and the wall-breakers while the others earned the laurels of glory.  While the rest advanced into the galaxy and pushed the boundaries of humanity's domain into the unknown, they were parceled out to hold the fort -- literally -- and thus got left behind.  They're the truly unsung heroes of the Great Crusade, the bedrock foundation upon which the Imperium was built.  Perturabo's doctrines in siege warfare -- both offensive and defensive -- were so complete, so perfect, that Guilliman even included them in the Codex Astartes.

 

These men deserved better than they got.  They had a right to complain, a right to want to stand in the sun, a right to anger when their bitterest rivals in the Crusade was honored as the Emperor's personal castellans.  Perturabo and his Iron Warriors, more than any other Traitor Legion, had the right to rebel against their father.  That it was they who brought down the walls of the Palace is delicious justice, a balancing of the scales: they built the Imperium, they got to tear it down.

[A D-B]

@a-d-b: it fits them like a charm.

 

Agreed. And the obvious, reasonable choice. I wouldn't argue otherwise.

 

 

 

Cthonian criminal scum? not impossible, but difficult.

 

 

They're only a small portion of the Black Legion, given that the Sons of Horus were practically extinct when the Black Legion was founded, but yeah. In the difficulty lies the possibility. The twists and turns. Who ordered it, and why? How did the Legion react at the level of gathered warband leaders? Individual warbands? At the squad level? Would some accept it and run with it, or would they rebel? 

 

A world of possibility there. Not just a characterful event that the Legion complies with, but an event with a million possibilities and repercussions among the one unique Legion that both heralds individual glory like the other Chaos Legions, yet swears allegiance to one chosen, destiny-touched man. To obey and remain part of the most successful Legion of all time? To resist and flee? To resist by taking a stand against what you see as anathema? To lie and swear you've done your overlord's bidding, and make your oath raw hypocrisy?

 

The "difficulty" is the reason there's a story, and handled well, it'd be an amazing one. The fact it's not a simple acceptance for characterful obviousness is where the deeper drama lies. 

 

I love that the Iron Warriors did it. It's very "them". I'm just saying there're other ways to twist the tale. Decimation is a beautifully dark concept with a lot of possibility. Exceptional circumstances and events with resistance and complexity are the source of pretty much every story ever.

 

 

Horuses befriending nature?

 

 

...?

 

 

Why would the guy that willingly speaks the miner dialect put them off so much? 

 

 

...?

[Wade Garrett]

 Perturabo and his Iron Warriors, more than any other Traitor Legion, had the right to rebel against their father.

 

More of a right than the man forcibly abducted from the men and women he vowed to die beside, and forced to be a war dog on a chain for a tyrant?

 

More of a right than the man who never wanted to be a warrior, who had his devotion spit on and his faith called a lie by a deceiver who bargained with the very gods he swore never existed?

 

More than a man whose homeworld was allowed to decay into a cesspool of moral depravity while he was reviled as a monster for the necessary atrocities committed to hold a hypocrite's kingdom together?

 

Really?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

First of all, and perhaps I didn't stress this quite enough, but I was trying to get across that the Legion, the Space Marines themselves, had the right.  Perturabo had his own grievances, as do the Primarchs you mentioned.  But let me riposte:

 

 

The War Hounds weren't monsters until Angron forced the Nails upon them and turned them into World Eaters.  Angron had the right, but his Legion did not; their fault lies with their Primarch.

 

The Word Bearers can likewise lay their treason at the feet of their Primarch.  Lorgar is the one whose life was so empty that he had to believe in something; he's the one who broke his bonds of fealty by worshiping the Emperor from Day One when he would have had to have been exposed to the Imperial Truth from Day One.  Was he lied to?  Yes.  But if he'd never taken up the mantle of preacher of Emperor's Divinity, then his Legion never would have suffered the shame of Monarchia and never would have turned.  I'd say that aside from the Word Bearers, they have the strongest claim.

 

The Night Lords are a unique case.  Their corruption is not the result of anything the Emperor or Curze did.  It was the government of Nostramo which is at fault, sending away its thieves and murderers not realizing that their every fault and flaw would be magnified just as their physiques would be magnified.

[Brother Heinrich]

Siege of Castellax, for me, had one redeeming light in the darkness, and that was the mixture of disgust and respect that Chaos Marines feel for Obliterators.  Ghost, no one can tell you whether you'll like it (I've met people who liked Battle for the Abyss, after all), so I recommend that you read it for yourself.

 

I've always felt that the Iron Warriors are the really tragic element of the Traitor side of the Heresy.  The Thousand Sons might hold the crown for "tragic heroes," but the IV Legion take the cake for "tragic villains."

 

What I mean by that is that the Iron Warriors are one of the few of the Traitor Legions that, in my mind, actually had a real grievance against the Emperor and the Imperium.  As has been mentioned several times previously, they were typecast by their brothers as the fixing force, the distraction, and the wall-breakers while the others earned the laurels of glory.  While the rest advanced into the galaxy and pushed the boundaries of humanity's domain into the unknown, they were parceled out to hold the fort -- literally -- and thus got left behind.  They're the truly unsung heroes of the Great Crusade, the bedrock foundation upon which the Imperium was built.  Perturabo's doctrines in siege warfare -- both offensive and defensive -- were so complete, so perfect, that Guilliman even included them in the Codex Astartes.

 

These men deserved better than they got.  They had a right to complain, a right to want to stand in the sun, a right to anger when their bitterest rivals in the Crusade was honored as the Emperor's personal castellans.  Perturabo and his Iron Warriors, more than any other Traitor Legion, had the right to rebel against their father.  That it was they who brought down the walls of the Palace is delicious justice, a balancing of the scales: they built the Imperium, they got to tear it down.

 

First of all, and perhaps I didn't stress this quite enough, but I was trying to get across that the Legion, the Space Marines themselves, had the right.  Perturabo had his own grievances, as do the Primarchs you mentioned.  But let me riposte:

 

 

The War Hounds weren't monsters until Angron forced the Nails upon them and turned them into World Eaters.  Angron had the right, but his Legion did not; their fault lies with their Primarch.

 

The Word Bearers can likewise lay their treason at the feet of their Primarch.  Lorgar is the one whose life was so empty that he had to believe in something; he's the one who broke his bonds of fealty by worshiping the Emperor from Day One when he would have had to have been exposed to the Imperial Truth from Day One.  Was he lied to?  Yes.  But if he'd never taken up the mantle of preacher of Emperor's Divinity, then his Legion never would have suffered the shame of Monarchia and never would have turned.  I'd say that aside from the Word Bearers, they have the strongest claim.

 

The Night Lords are a unique case.  Their corruption is not the result of anything the Emperor or Curze did.  It was the government of Nostramo which is at fault, sending away its thieves and murderers not realizing that their every fault and flaw would be magnified just as their physiques would be magnified.

 

http://myreactiongifs.com/gifs/beardedguyheadnod.gif

[Wade Garrett]

The VIII were created by taking children born in the Emperor's underground dungeon colonies, who survived by being more terrifying than the scum around them, and turning them into supersoldiers to fight for their jailer...and then the Emperor had the chutzpah to be morally offended when the creations of Project HEY MAL LET'S MAKE SOME MONSTERS turned out monstrous.

 

The XVII were the sons of the Emperor's defeated foes, ripped out of their parents' arms and brainwashed until their zeal was noteworthy even among twenty legions of indoctrinated killing machines.

 

The Heresy was the result of a LOT of the Emperor's sins coming home to roost, and the body blows to the IV Legion's pride were far from the worst.

[Scribe]

It is interesting to note that the FW books have intentionally painted a poorly justified character (The Emperor) in an even worse light as noted by Wade. I still dont like the NL origin...

[Shuggnuggath]

I think the Iron Warriors are like the 'working class heroes' who build the 19th century world while the upper classes claimed the glory and then sent them off to die in the trenches of WW1. 

[Plague Angel]

I can appreciate the point that Ferrum's drawing in distinguishing between the Legiones' reasons for betrayal and the primarch's.

 

I still want to push back a little, though. What happened with the Ultramarines and the Emperor may have been Lorgar's "fault," but given the devoutness of their nature and the depth of their faith, I don't think the Word Bearers felt that insult any less keenly. Even if we're only taking the Legiones into account, I'd say what happened there and how it affected the Word Bearers is a much harsher, more outraging insult when compared to the simple ingratitude the IV had to deal with.

 

The Iron Warriors' efforts in the Crusade went unappreciated. The Word Bearers' efforts in the Crusade were outright dismissed.

[Nehekhare]

...?

 

Oh, I get it: Black Legion, not Luna Wolves. Yes, I can see that, if only as a way for Abaddon to demonstrate his difference from Horus. But therein lies the lesson lost - this is exactly the kind of individualist narcissism that Perturabo wanted to eradicate from his legion.

[Wade Garrett]

Let me be clear:

 

I'm not saying Perturabo and the Iron Warriors were crybabies with First World Problems compared to [insert own favorite Traitor Legion here]. A lot of the fallen Legions had grievances with Big E, and I'm wary of saying any of them were more justified than the others.

 

Although I will say that I believe Angron was the Primarch most justified in turning on the Emperor because ye gods and wee fishes.

[Visitor13]

Siege of Castellax, for me, had one redeeming light in the darkness, and that was the mixture of disgust and respect that Chaos Marines feel for Obliterators.  Ghost, no one can tell you whether you'll like it (I've met people who liked Battle for the Abyss, after all), so I recommend that you read it for yourself.

 

I've always felt that the Iron Warriors are the really tragic element of the Traitor side of the Heresy.  The Thousand Sons might hold the crown for "tragic heroes," but the IV Legion take the cake for "tragic villains."

 

What I mean by that is that the Iron Warriors are one of the few of the Traitor Legions that, in my mind, actually had a real grievance against the Emperor and the Imperium.  As has been mentioned several times previously, they were typecast by their brothers as the fixing force, the distraction, and the wall-breakers while the others earned the laurels of glory.  While the rest advanced into the galaxy and pushed the boundaries of humanity's domain into the unknown, they were parceled out to hold the fort -- literally -- and thus got left behind.  They're the truly unsung heroes of the Great Crusade, the bedrock foundation upon which the Imperium was built.  Perturabo's doctrines in siege warfare -- both offensive and defensive -- were so complete, so perfect, that Guilliman even included them in the Codex Astartes.

 

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as of "Extermination", don't these doctrines basically amount to throwing men at fortresses?

[Visitor13]

I've been on the fence about reading castellax for a while but I haven't been able to get much information about it - at the risk of derailing the thread, what's wrong with it? I'm perplexed by the idea of iron warriors being written in a way that would better suit night lords.

 

I've just started to read it. So far, the IW are quarrelling and doing very nasty things to their slaves. Both hallmarks of Night Lords (as well as chaos marines in general), though at least with the cruelty you can argue they're doing that to instil discipline among their slaves as much as just to have fun.

[hummus]

A good book if you want to justify iron warrior raptors

[minigun762]

I've been on the fence about reading castellax for a while but I haven't been able to get much information about it - at the risk of derailing the thread, what's wrong with it? I'm perplexed by the idea of iron warriors being written in a way that would better suit night lords.

 

I read it. It's nothing amazing one way or the other. 

There are some elements I thought that were a pretty meh and some elements I found myself  nodding in agreement with. 

 

I can say one thing though, it did give me some insight into the direction GW is taking traitor marines. 

[A D-B]

 

...?

 

Oh, I get it: Black Legion, not Luna Wolves. 

 

Ohhhhh. Totally with you now, on all points.

[Rain]

 

I've been on the fence about reading castellax for a while but I haven't been able to get much information about it - at the risk of derailing the thread, what's wrong with it? I'm perplexed by the idea of iron warriors being written in a way that would better suit night lords.

 

I've just started to read it. So far, the IW are quarrelling and doing very nasty things to their slaves. Both hallmarks of Night Lords (as well as chaos marines in general), though at least with the cruelty you can argue they're doing that to instil discipline among their slaves as much as just to have fun.

 

They start betraying one another. A lot. And just overall they all come off as the usual boring "look how evil and brutal I am" types rather than the cold and professional killers the Iron Warriors have generally been portrayed as. Except for the main character "Rhodaan" (really dumb name as well, apparently in reference to the Godzilla monster) who has the whole "honor of the legion" thing for characters that end up betraying him. And everyone. Everyone betrays everyone, the end.

 

Oh and as far as Perturabo's siege tactics coming down to "throwing men at fortresses" that's not quite right. Perturabo's tactics are best described as mathematical. He saw a fortress as a complex equation to be solved, and just as you must spend time to solve such an equation, you must spend lives to crack a fortress. It was not about the carelessness to throw as many lives as he whimed, it was about the discipline to throw as many lives as was necessary. Whereas Dorn was driven by glory and honor, Perturabo was driven by duty, he had a job to do, he was damn good at it, and all other priorities were rescinded. At the end of the day however, he loathed being seen as a tool more than a man and so he rebelled.

 

Iron Warriors kick ass.

[Nehekhare]

Iron Warriors kick ass.

 

ok, you have taste, and it is of the finest sort.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as of "Extermination", don't these doctrines basically amount to throwing men at fortresses?

 

That is practically a direct quote from rogal dorn, and the new fluff in a way elaborates on this.

IV. legion geneseed is particularily easy to transplant, so every iron warrior is a replaceable ressource - unlike imperial fist (flawed) geneseed, which does not only suffer from various organ dysfunctions, but also takes a very long and painful process to implant. This is why imperial fists generally suffer from the pathetic delusion of individual importance. sually prolonged exposure to ordinance is enough to cure of this malady, though.

Perturabos siege tactics are perfect, honed from the start by inter-planetary warfare and constant simulations. His was the ability to see the inherent flaw in everything and exploit it to the very end, utilized first by the tyrant dammekos on the fortress-world of olympia and then by the emperor throughout the galaxy. Because dorn was born with the inherited benefit of an interstellar empire, he never had to delevop the skills needed to win a war - single-minded stubbornness usually was enough to pull through and then take the laurels from those legions that really did the work in the trenches.

Yes, in words easy to understand: perturabo throws men at walls, because this is how sieges are won.

[incinerator950]

:cuss Yeah Iron Warriors

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

They are the methodical killing machine from The Terminator. They do not make sacrifices to the gods in hopes of getting lucky, they do not b**ch about taking casualties, they do not engage in glorious close combat with an enemy champion, they do not waiver in there cause, they go up to your fortress, tear it down with mathematical precision and put a bolt round in your head. -Iron Warriors in a nutshell

[Visitor13]

Read Castellax some more. More bickering, and yeah, it gets old fast. However, the way they treat their slaves seems fitting the Legion theme, so good job to Mr Werner on that.

 

Also, I'm relieved to hear Perturabo wasn't wasteful with his men, other than that decimation deal.

[Lepaca]

Siege of Castellax is awful. Really, really bad. I get the feeling the author isn't really that familiar with the 40k license, and even if he is, most of the characters are really one-dimensional. Storm of Iron is the prototypical McNeill book. Really well done battle scenes, not much of a plot, a single Unlikely Hero getting way more done than he should, and everyone but the main character dies (spoiler but not really, again it's a McNeill book). People just like it because the first half or so makes the IW seem really badass.

After reading Angel Exterminatus I decided to never ever read another McNeill book ever again. Although I really liked how Perturabo was (for the first time really) given some depth of character the whole thing with the Istvaan-Survivor Uber-Marines blowing up 3 dozen Land Raiders (and so on) was just terrible.

On a related note: Where has it been established that the Warriors practice decimation? I kind of missed that until now! (Judging from the thread it was established in SoC?)

Then again I'm kind of thankful that decimation is now apparently an IW thing if that means it won't make it into A-D-B's Black Legion.