durdle-durdle Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Just ordered three new land speeders to help augment my deathwing army. I usually play with the two raider list. I've noted that the issue i usually run into is vehicles with weapons that can pop my raiders. (specifically that darn super melta leman russ the guard have) Seemed to me that the Land speeders could be a great addition, especially with deep strike. For a fairly low amount of points, i can deep strike two multi melta's behind any vehicle that is causing me trouble and basically explode it. If it survives the return fire, that's just gravy. I've noted that usually once i've taken out the threats to my land raiders, I usually win. Most people here don't carry alot of power weapons, instead electing to outshoot their opponents, so chain fists and the like are usually a non-issue. The only real issue is MC's, which i don't see many of. even then, if it doesn't pop my raider that turn, it's likely to get a face full of DW power fists/ smited maces next turn. Speeders just seem great to me. With two MM's and deep strike at low price, they can kill most the threats i have. Even then, the HB/HB version, HB/cyclone, and HF/HF seem like great buys to me. for a squadron of five, that's -30 s 5 ap 4 shots -15 s 5 ap 4 shots + ten s8 AP 3 shots/ ten s4 ap 6 blasts - or ten s 5 ap 4 templates unfortunately, i am hesitant to run speeders in squadrons (other than as 5 HB/HB speeders, just for the lols). they seem to be best when deployed as singletons to do some suicide task. (drop a tank, then die probably or run into that horde, flame everything, then die) I guess i'm asking for ideas on how to utilize these speeders. They seem to have great potential for space marines, but given their fragility, I am unsure of how they work best. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Typhoon with multi-melta is better than dual multi-melta if you are going to Deepstrike on the weak rear armor of a vehicle. But, the dual multi-melta costs a bit less, in an army where points are at a premium, so take what you can afford. You might really appreciate the longer range, two shots, and krak/frag options that a typhoon has though. paired with a multi-melta, it can hunt anything. Heavy flamers are a suicide weapon, as you will be in assault/rapid fire range of anything left alive; just a horrible weapon with how skimmers currently are able to swatted out of the sky like nothing. Sacrifiicng a unit shouldn't be a part of its normal operation, and so I avoid them. They work much better as highly mobile assassins anyways. Also, if you have the Fast Attack slots available, don't run them as one large squadron. Include them in your army list as units of one or two. That being said, you can still deploy them all roughly as one pack, which can break apart into its individual units and hunt things as needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durdle-durdle Posted April 20, 2014 Author Share Posted April 20, 2014 I can agree with you that the typhoon makes the MM more versatile, but if it deep strikes, it wouldn't likely live past the next turn, as it won't get a jink save (i think?) My thought with the MM/MM is that a MM has a 50% chance of blowing up a tank (assuming it hits and pens (which the pen is likely)), so if i have two MM's there's a high chance that tank is going down. I think if deep striking, this is the best option, but if starting on the board, the typoon is much better as it gives you something to shoot in the turn you're moving up and can shoot frags if needed. (just my thought, havent tested it yet) Do you think speeders are a good asset to DW vs. say RAS for this type of work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkangeldentist Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Land speeders are fast, fairly reliable and highly mobile weapon platforms. I am quite intrigued about fielding speeders with Deathwing, they'd add some valuable firepower. As a general rule, if you have the slots single speeders tend to work best as they are more likely to attract little/none or excessive firepower to take them out. Dual multi-meltas would I think give slightly more reliably odds for destroying more heavily armoured tanks thanks to the 2D6 armour penetration and AP 1 bonus to the table. However I like the typhoon for general purpose usage and have a lingering fondness for the tornado. I have used largish squadrons of speeders before, four to be precise (1 typhoon and 3 tornados) and they have their uses. A big squadron of speeders (particularly with heavy bolters and assault cannons) make an awesome target for prescience. With assault cannons and typhoons speeders also make a good dual function option to taking down a multitude of targets. Big squadrons attract a lot of fire but I've found it possible to get them within the aura of effect from either dark shroud or power field generator. (Neat trick for the dark shroud option is to have one speeder go flat out for the bonus to cover saves. Flat out and with stealth that front speeder will have a 3+ save.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Why are you deep striking them? That does protect them but you give up at least a turn of use and probibly more before they come on. They are fast enough with turbo boost to get anywhere on the table (and get a nice cover save too) that first turn and start taking side armor on the second.. I also recommend running them in singles but in a pack... they will give each other cover and only one at a time can be killed per enemy squad shooting at them. and that super melta is on a hellhound chassis and can fall to heavy bolters on the side armor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I can agree with you that the typhoon makes the MM more versatile, but if it deep strikes, it wouldn't likely live past the next turn, as it won't get a jink save (i think?) My thought with the MM/MM is that a MM has a 50% chance of blowing up a tank (assuming it hits and pens (which the pen is likely)), so if i have two MM's there's a high chance that tank is going down. I think if deep striking, this is the best option, but if starting on the board, the typoon is much better as it gives you something to shoot in the turn you're moving up and can shoot frags if needed. (just my thought, havent tested it yet) Do you think speeders are a good asset to DW vs. say RAS for this type of work? If you are Deepstriking to hammer rear tank armor, which in all but a few cases is AV 10, you don't need the Melta rule to do that. Better to have three shots instead of two in this case. Side armor for all but a few vehicles is 12 or less, meaning even Str 8 shots without the Melta rule have a good chance of doing bad things to the enemy, so staying close to the maximum 24" multi-melta range is still viable. The only time you really need the Melta rule is if you will be attacking AV 13 or 14 very often. If you face few or no Land Raiders/Monoliths/ Demolisher-class vehicles, then the Melta rule is not a "must have" feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I think Landspeeder Support Squadrons are an untapped and underutilized aspect of this codex. I love them. Compared to say a terminator squad with an AC and Chainfist, you can get 4 speeders (3x HB/HB, 1 HB/AC) and pump out more shots than a terminator squad and with greater mobility. I've used the LSSS multiple times in my GW and RW armies. Even just as heavy bolters setups. I've only ever deep struck a squadron once when I had a drop pod with a locator beacon delivering a tactical squad of melta. I think Deep Striking with landspeeders is far too risky without a Beacon. The chance of mishap is really high given how crowded a map can be. When I did that deep strike route, I had a mix of multi-melta and heavy flamer. I think given their investment though running them with DW is really expensive especially since you need all the scoring troops you can get. I'd say run them in lieu of DW as their name suggests, support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durdle-durdle Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 I've only ever deep struck a squadron once when I had a drop pod with a locator beacon delivering a tactical squad of melta. I think Deep Striking with landspeeders is far too risky without a Beacon. The chance of mishap is really high given how crowded a map can be. this was one of the things i was thinking as well. But with our ability to deep strike termie squads the turn before we start rolling reserves, and our special character no-scattering AND having a homing beacon, it seems like that would work. But as i've said before, this is just speculation so far on my part. i look forward to testing it. Why are you deep striking them? That does protect them but you give up at least a turn of use and probibly more before they come on. They are fast enough with turbo boost to get anywhere on the table (and get a nice cover save too) that first turn and start taking side armor on the second.. My thought on this was that deep striking them would ensure that they get where they need to be to blow up a target with little risk of being shot off the map before their objective is finished. unless i'm shooting them in my shooting phase, they're just moving to get in position. By deep striking, you are giving them a turn of protection, and accomplish the same objective. if i'm shooting them and moving up, the MM will probably never even get in range to be useful because it will die to las/autocannons, i think. Dual multi-meltas would I think give slightly more reliably odds for destroying more heavily armoured tanks thanks to the 2D6 armour penetration and AP 1 bonus to the table. However I like the typhoon for general purpose usage and have a lingering fondness for the tornado. yes, the typhoon is better at general purpose. Now that i'm thinking of it, it really probably would be better to use the typhoon, as it would have the tactical flexibility to shoot from across the board as opposed to being limited to super close if need be. without doing any math here, two krak missles in the rear of a tank + a MM is probably about as good as a MM (potentially better, there's the chance for three pens vs two actually). it just seems as though the MM/MM would be more reliable in one-shotting a tank. Though the five points extra for the typhoons is probably better for the added flexibility to shoot 48" vs limited to 24". in addition, S8 AP 3 is enough to deal with lascannon teams and the like fairly handily, as it would penetrate marine armor and instant death IG weapon teams. man, i'm really looking forward to testing this all out. just have to figure out how to magnetize these things well. I think Landspeeder Support Squadrons are an untapped and underutilized aspect of this codex. I love them. Compared to say a terminator squad with an AC and Chainfist, you can get 4 speeders (3x HB/HB, 1 HB/AC) and pump out more shots than a terminator squad and with greater mobility. why the assault cannon? I get that it's 4 higher strength shots vs 3, but the 12" shorter range and additional cost makes me prefer the HB/HB set up more, i think. also a large squadron of HB/HB shots seems like a great target for prescience! could a librarian on bike join a squadron of land speeders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I was just using that 4 speeder setup as an example of what you're getting as ranged firepower compared to 5 terminators at range. Granted terminators are more about their durability and close combat prowess, but if you're looking for bullets, speeders (of any arrangement are a great deal). Also note that Belial's Teleport Homer is NOT a Locator Beacon. The teleport homer specifically refers to Terminators not scattering whereas the locator beacon allows for anything deep striking. The only thing in our codex that allows a Locator Beacon is the drop pod (thanks Vetock!). My RW list looks like this, and I've had a lot of fun with it, especially on a first turn: Sammael + RWCS (Banner, RWGL)RWAS x 5 (5 Man Squads 2x Melta)Tactical Squad (9 Man, Melta, Multi-Melta, Combi Melta, Drop Pod+Locator Beacon)DarkshroudRWSS (3xHB/HB, 2x HF/MM) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Why are you deep striking them? That does protect them but you give up at least a turn of use and probibly more before they come on. They are fast enough with turbo boost to get anywhere on the table (and get a nice cover save too) that first turn and start taking side armor on the second.. My thought on this was that deep striking them would ensure that they get where they need to be to blow up a target with little risk of being shot off the map before their objective is finished. unless i'm shooting them in my shooting phase, they're just moving to get in position. By deep striking, you are giving them a turn of protection, and accomplish the same objective. if i'm shooting them and moving up, the MM will probably never even get in range to be useful because it will die to las/autocannons, i think. But you are taking the chance that you might not get them til turn 5... I tend to not trust to luck because it usually fails me right when I need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyocum Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 durdle-durdle, you don't need the libby to join the speeders to do the prescience thing, just need the libby within 12". Only reason to have the speeders with the libby would be PFG protection when they're not moving to get a jink. And, with 4 HB/HB speeders, I would replace one of the HBs with either an AC or a MM, just to give you that extra chance to really hurt that vehicle that you need popped NOW, or to even give you a chance to hurt something big that basically laughs at the S5 of a HB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durdle-durdle Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 But you are taking the chance that you might not get them til turn 5... I tend to not trust to luck because it usually fails me right when I need it. that's a good point. Hadn't thought of that. Also note that Belial's Teleport Homer is NOT a Locator Beacon. The teleport homer specifically refers to Terminators not scattering whereas the locator beacon allows for anything deep striking. The only thing in our codex that allows a Locator Beacon is the drop pod (thanks Vetock!). My RW list looks like this, and I've had a lot of fun with it, especially on a first turn: Thanks, I hadn't realized that. durdle-durdle, you don't need the libby to join the speeders to do the prescience thing, just need the libby within 12". Only reason to have the speeders with the libby would be PFG protection when they're not moving to get a jink. Basically what i was thinking. That and to help protect the librarian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberame Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Been awhile since I played Ravenwing, but don't all ravenwing bikers have locater beacons as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Turn 5 is pretty rare, that could only happen on a mishap, as reserves units automatically arrive on Turn 4. I wish that our Speeders got scout, outflanking speeders would be awesome! Also note that our Landspeeders are fast skimmers which means they Turbo Boost 18" not the usual 12" all terrain which they can ignore (dangerous terrain notwithstanding). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Been awhile since I played Ravenwing, but don't all ravenwing bikers have locater beacons as well? No. Very specifically called Teleport Homers. Edit: and the Librarian doesnt get one of those on his bike either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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