when to roll ion shield save

[Jarl of Wulfen]

I've had the chance to field my imperial Knight recently and both my opponents and I weren't quite sure when to roll the saves. I don't have the codex handy but I believe it says something to the affect of "invulnerable save vs hits". I took that as, my opponents rolled to hit, then I rolled the save to see if they made it through. Then the pen/glance was rolled. They were OK with this, not that it saved the Knight, he died by turn 2 from weight of fire. Clarification would be much appreciated, thanks!

[Dam13n]

With vehicles:

- first roll to-hit then to-penetrate.

- this creates 2 pools of dice - penetrating hits and glancing hits.

- if the vehicle has an invulnerable save it is then taken.

- When I do this, I tend to roll all the glances first, losing a HP for each one failed.

- I then roll for the penetrating hits, losing a HP for each one failed.

- for normal vehicles, the attacker then rolls a die for each penetrating hit failed to see what damage is caused.

 

So the save is taken for each penetrating and glancing hit, with successful saves negating the damage.

[Gentlemanloser]

Which you can in essence roll the save after hits. Then see which unsaved glance or pen. It makes no difference to the outcome.

 

edit. And saves some dice rolling. So might be the preferred method.

[Fibonacci]

Your marines do not roll for saves against hits.  They make them on wounds, in pools, according to strength and AP of the wepons used. 

 

The same goes for vehicles.  Don't take ion shield saves until you have a HP lose to save against. 

 

Note that a flyer's Evade rule has a specific line to point out that it works differently than normal.  It must declare it is evading AFTER to hit rolls but BEFORE penetration rolls are made.  Once it is evading it takes jink saves.  Jink is a cover save.  Cover saves and vehicles are lined out on pages 74 & 75.  "If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it must take a cover save against it, exactly like a non-vehicle model would do against a Wound". 

 

So no saves are taken until the model suffers a glancing or penetrating hit.

[Jarl of Wulfen]

Thanks for the responses! I tend to run a marine horde army and don't use too many vehicles. The Knight was just too good looking to not try out.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

So no saves are taken until the model suffers a glancing or penetrating hit.

 

What difference does it make if Saves are rolled prior to AP?

 

All it does is potentially cut down on rolling required, as the number of AP rolls to be made may be reduced.

 

Speeding the game up can only be a good thing in 6th to be fair.

[The Librarian]

 

So no saves are taken until the model suffers a glancing or penetrating hit.

 

What difference does it make if Saves are rolled prior to AP?

 

All it does is potentially cut down on rolling required, as the number of AP rolls to be made may be reduced.

 

Speeding the game up can only be a good thing in 6th to be fair.

But otherwise the number of save rolls will be reduced. If you have to roll less saves, you can fail less saves. For the other procedure, there are later less chances for glance and pen if you roll for the shield first.

So I do not thiink you can realy compare those two methods. One might give a disadvantage for the "saver" compared to the other.

But I do not want to do the maths right now :-) and I am not sure if one can give a certain answer without doing it.

[Fibonacci]

Assume you fire a bunch of krak missiles at my forge fiend and score six hits.

 

6 penitration rolls average 3 will glance or better.

3 rolls for 5++ invulnerable save means 2 HP lost + possible pen

There are 9 total rolls.

 

6 invulnerable saves against the hits means 4 will not be saved.

4 penitration rolls average 2 glance or better.

Total of 10 rolls.

 

Besides not following the rules there is also the possibility of requiring more rolls to resolve the shooting.

Following the rules AND speeding up the game can only be a good thing.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah yeah, here I was assuming all hits will Glance/Pen.

[Gideon999]

Math gets funkier too when we change the value of the save, such as if you are using knight ranks, etc.

[netminder69]

Which you can in essence roll the save after hits. Then see which unsaved glance or pen. It makes no difference to the outcome.

edit. And saves some dice rolling. So might be the preferred method.

This is so not true! Don't you know that die only has so many 4+ rolls in it?? You could waste one on a hit that doesn't glance or pen! You're wasting your good rolls! ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

Me and the Dice God are like BFF. ;)

[Grey Mage]

Statistically yes, but statistics and practice are not identical- to be on the safe side, roll them after the glance/pen roll is made.

[JeffJedi]

The true difference is important. You are all looking at it as mathhammer but missing a key point.

 

I roll to hit, I roll to armor pen. Then you get your save. This follows the same sequence as shooting infantry models.

 

The speed comes in with me picking up the dice that hit and rolling for the pens. If I had to wait until you rolled your saves we'd be taking turns in the dice rolling back and fourth. This way I roll all my dice and then you roll all your dice.

 

This is the same reason you roll saves after wounds instead of after hits, even though in real life the armor stops the bullet before the wound. It gives the owning player the last chance to 'save' his model.