IW before Extermination and AE

[Silent Observant]

Hey all, I am trying to understand why people do not like, are dissapointed, or changed their perception of the Iron Warriors after the Extermination FW Book and Angel Exterminatus book. I am not biased I simply do not understand and want to know why. Thank you.

[Kais Klip]

I'm still trying to find out the illustration of the Iron Warriors that Extermination paints.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Personally I enjoyed AE, I thought Perturabo's depiction gave him some real depth.

 

I think people forget that legiones to him are like regular humans to legiones, even less so perhaps.

[Pyromancer]

Personally, I am not disappointed in the new fluff, nor has my perception changed of them. Extermination, and before it AE, reinforced the fact that the legion is cold and bitter, and also that they are misused and given no credit.

 

I believe that the main thing that people dislike about the new fluff however, is the subject of the Decimation of the legion. If you want to know more about that topic and both sides arguments, I would suggest reading the IW thread!

 

Have a nice day!

[Kol Saresk]

The biggest problem I had with AE was that Graham McNeill did a [sarcasm]fantastic[/sarcasm] job of making the IV Legion look ridiculously tiny. Most of the characters were pretty much the cast of Storm of Iron "in the early days", minus Honsou of course.

 

As for Extermination, as I understand it, the picture painted is that before Perturabo, the Legion had a record of excellence and it took pride in that excellence. When Perturabo took command, he then decimated the Legion for not being the supreme Legion. This seemingly senseless act resulted in the Legion at large becoming bitter and where they once took pride in what they did, they now came to resent it.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

In Mcneill's defence, he did what many of us would do. Took characters he's already invested time and created depth in, and given them a beginning.

 

My own 40k lord now has his roots in the Heresy, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

The Iron Warriors problem is that AE is one of the few stories they have (Danitoch excluded). If another writer was to get in on it, I'm sure we'd see a wider variety of characters. The 4th have never really been central to the Heresy though. Lets just hope they get more screen time

[Hydriatus]

The Crimson Fist short story was good for some more IW. I personally thought that it would have been brilliant if all the Legions got a dedicated book, bit like Fulgrim, Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons. Scars is almost there but loses due to the mess of subplots running throughout...

 

I enjoyed AE too, especially when Fulgrim confronts Perturabo's dreams, and even he is impressed. Also, the image of Perturabo passing the time in the middle of a cold iron labyrinth building a toy clockwork titan is strangely compelling...

[Nehekhare]

This seemingly senseless act resulted in the Legion at large becoming bitter

This isn't what the book says. The legion became bitter because their star was waning, they were dispersed among the stars, used for garrison duty and breaking their backs with the glory going elsewhere. At Incaladion, they literally destroyed themselves to prove themselves. Decimation changed that by purging this kind of glory-hogging narcissism that is so prevalent in other legiones.

 

I like how the IW fluff is becoming more and more of a solid, consequent, high tragic narrative. What I don't like is the other legiones interfering with this narrative by dishonoring the IV.s effords: half-breed honsou, ultramarines with dantioch, sharrowkyn at the athenaeum, pollux at phall, dorn and perturabo. Where are our victories?

[Kol Saresk]

I did say "as I understand it" for a reason, as I am going by what I have managed to collate from what everyone has said. But thank you for rectifying it.

 

@AngelsAbsolute: But so far McNeill and Anthoney Reynolds are the only two authors to do this. But as pointed out, because its really the only story out there, it provides such a narrow view.

 

Ye it still remains that it was a cop out as McNeill demonstrated he could create new characters, but he killed all of those except for some of the Loyalists, such as Sharrowkyn. McNeill has the capacity to be a good author. Storm of Iron and(from what I hear) the Mars series are proof of this. But too often it seems like he shortcuts the work.

[Marshal Rohr]

John French will do better with the Iron Warriors in the Tallarn books. He made Ahriman cool.

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

This seemingly senseless act resulted in the Legion at large becoming bitter

This isn't what the book says. The legion became bitter because their star was waning, they were dispersed among the stars, used for garrison duty and breaking their backs with the glory going elsewhere.

Yes. Randomly killing a tenth of his Legion totally solved the problem that the IV were becoming bitter because their star was waning, they were being dispersed among the stars for garrison duty, and they were breaking their backs with all the glory going elsewhere.

 

In much the same way Angron solved the War Hounds anger control issues by hammering the Butcher's Nails into their heads.

[Jareddm]

I did say "as I understand it" for a reason, as I am going by what I have managed to collate from what everyone has said. But thank you for rectifying it.

 

@AngelsAbsolute: But so far McNeill and Anthoney Reynolds are the only two authors to do this. But as pointed out, because its really the only story out there, it provides such a narrow view.

 

Ye it still remains that it was a cop out as McNeill demonstrated he could create new characters, but he killed all of those except for some of the Loyalists, such as Sharrowkyn. McNeill has the capacity to be a good author. Storm of Iron and(from what I hear) the Mars series are proof of this. But too often it seems like he shortcuts the work.

Actually, there's a recurring character from Mechanicum in the Priests/Lords of Mars books as well.  It's (annoyingly) starting to become a quirk of his books.

[Marshal Rohr]

His Thousand Son characters pop up in the Ahriman books. I guess the Horus Heresy wasn't quite as deadly for officers.

[Jareddm]

Yes, but he didn't write the Ahriman books.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

This seemingly senseless act resulted in the Legion at large becoming bitter

This isn't what the book says. The legion became bitter because their star was waning, they were dispersed among the stars, used for garrison duty and breaking their backs with the glory going elsewhere. At Incaladion, they literally destroyed themselves to prove themselves. Decimation changed that by purging this kind of glory-hogging narcissism that is so prevalent in other legiones.

 

I like how the IW fluff is becoming more and more of a solid, consequent, high tragic narrative. What I don't like is the other legiones interfering with this narrative by dishonoring the IV.s effords: half-breed honsou, ultramarines with dantioch, sharrowkyn at the athenaeum, pollux at phall, dorn and perturabo. Where are our victories?

No, the book says that the bitterness began in response to the decimation, almost like a defense mechanism kicking in to allow them to better survive their father's regume. Prior to the decimation, they were prideful in their typical use, yet absent was the glory-hogging narcissism that was rampant among the other Legions, even following the campaign that marked the beginning of their decline. It even continued following the decimation, though redirected by the onset bitterness.

 

As for my own personal preferences,

 

Angel Exterminatus' issues wasn't the III or IV themselves, but the ongoing wider problem of the author, McNeil.

 

Extermination, on the other hand, got the character of the Iron Warriors down well, and painted a picture that is all kinds of awesome. From their overly prideful origins, to their re-forged character following a decimation decree that fits the Lord of Iron to a T, to their multiple brotherhoods, all the way to the downright brutal depiction of war the Iron Warrior way.

[Nehekhare]

No, the book says that the bitterness began in response to the decimation, almost like a defense mechanism kicking in to allow them to better survive their father's regume. Prior to the decimation, they were prideful in their typical use, yet absent was the glory-hogging narcissism that was rampant among the other Legions, even following the campaign that marked the beginning of their decline. It even continued following the decimation, though redirected by the onset bitterness.

 

<citation needed>

 

I think you are alluding to the following quote from p.110: "The wedge that had been hammered between the Iron Warriors and the other Legions, was only driven home further as time passed, and resentment, pride and paranoia gathered in the hearts of many of the Legion. By his grim methods and savage example Perturabo had awoke in his warriors a reflection of his own dark soul, and within them his own suspicion, malevolent distrust and callous indifference to life grew alongside the ruthless determination, cold intellect and strength he wished to unlock there."

resentment, pride and paranoia are clearly attributed to the IW attitude towards other legions (such as Guilliman's, first and foremost objecting to the decimation) and are thus quite different to the narcissistic drive to prove their worth to these others that led to them squandering their strength ineffectively at Incaladion before the coming of the Lord of Iron. The second sentence outright states Perturabo's goals and what -tragically- came with them, but would later turn out to be exploited by horus to turn the IV. to his fold.

 

whereas it is clearly said what the IV. became after decimation (for "not being already supreme"): "where once the Legion has been ruthless in its willingsness to accept losses in return for victory, now it was utterly driven to the point where such considerations were as far beaneath it as mortal fear. War had become a deadly equation which the Iron Warriors were supremely suited to solve; a relentless, unyielding engine of war, a beast of steel and fire which swept worlds clean and devoured whole armies." (p.110)

 

so much for decimation not solving anything @wade garrett ;)