Vehicles that always perform well against specific armies.

[Sheesh Mode]

Awhile ago I watched a Necron versus Ultramarine video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxazBxjKFqU 

 

I was startled by the effectiveness of the Vindicators in taking down the Necron force, blasting apart Monoliths and annihilating squads of warriors. In time I have used the Vindicator and thus far found it a great accompaniment to my Landraider+MoK Chosenw/Khârn. I am curious whether or not the Vindicator can be relied upon in most, if not all engagements against Necrons. Without a doubt they are fantastic against Orks - and I do not feel that will change with the new codex - yet are they equally reliable in other scenarios? 

 

Another example would be thunderfire cannons, those are well and away the best anti-hoard heavies available to marines, and likewise Heldrakes are the best anti-MEQ in the game. Lets make a list of units that will always work will in particular circumstances. 

[Azash]

Well against necrons a vindicator would be a useless sitting duck against a cronair list. The necrons would have the mobility to get side armor shots and templates can't even snap fire at fliers.

 

As far as the list goes I would add stormtalons as they are particularly good against flying MC's. A measely 125 points and you can put 7 str 6+ shots into the target all ap4 and most are rending and TL'ed. So if you run into lots of deamons or Nids stormtalons are vary effective.

[Kaedes Nex]

Vindicators and TFCs are actually amazing against pretty much every army except Skyblight formation and Elysian Drop Troopers. Against hordes, Vindicators are still a large blast, and TFCs are strong even against things like enemy marines.

The problem is Vindicators are old, old news and everyone puts them high on target priority, and people are catching on to TFCs, so I see a lot of things like outflanking/sniper Kroot or flyers take them out turn 1-2. Since TFCs are usually taken in low numbers, usually just the one, the opponent can shut it down early if they wanted to.

Both weapons suffer from scatter along with the TFC now being barrage. So depending on your experiences with the scatter die and how many roofs are on the board, that can alter the reliability of these units. But I guess the fact that these units don't really survive until the final turn means they are just that good, in a strange way.

[Hellios]

Vindicators work well against anyone, the problem is they are fairly fragile, and a high priority. If someone roles up with 3 vindicators at 1,500pts... You've got some stuff to sort out... They threaten almost every unit in the game. The problem is, if they can't shoot they are pretty much useless... and it isn't that hard to stop them from shooting.

 

TFCs are tougher now, so that is good... Whirlwinds can also be nasty against a lot of armies, if you can hide them, keep themsafe. With My Dark Angels I often push up through the centre of the board with a focus on one flank (which my vindicator will often cover). I'll then try and hide my whirlwind somewhere outside of LoS on my empty flank. Depending on what the other guy is running, he then has to choose between sending something after the whirlwind (which might keep that unit out of much of the rest of the game), or just let the whirlwind drop templates on him.

 

My Greenwing list isn't meant to be competitive, but it does okay.

[Axagoras]

they do jack vs monsters (most are t6 so 1 wound doesnt phase them)

[King Jackal]

Vindicators vs Plague Marines 

[Sheesh Mode]

Vindicators will annihilate Plague Marines, though I am well aware there are limitations to the tank: its side armor is terrible and it can't shoot at flyers. However, on the ground Vindicators are unparalleled against Necrons and Orks. 

 

Against Tyranids, predators are more reliable, volume of heavy fire is more important against their MC's and Venomthropes. 

 

TFC's are excellent against blob armies: Orks, Nids, Daemons, Blob guard, though they are best against Orks and nids. They are not reliable against C:SM, and only somewhat useful against Chaos marines. 

 

Whirlwinds are great against ork and nid armies to thin out infantry. 

 

There's more, but I think you all get the idea. 

[Kaedes Nex]

I might be getting the numbers wrong, but TFC has a 4x S6 mode doesn't it? That's quite good if you can land your hits even against marines. TFC is just solid all around. Only army TFC is bad against are all flyers like Elysian Drop Troops/Skyblight or all heavy vehicles like Armored Battle Group.

 

Also there's the Whirlwind Scorpius if you want a WW for elite armies instead of an anti-horde WW.

[Black Templar 307th Comp.]

Since TFCs are usually taken in low numbers, usually just the one, the opponent can shut it down early if they wanted to.

Coteaz attached to a friendly unit nearby will stop that. It's a worthwhile investment imo, to protect such a valuable weapon.

[incinerator950]

Vindicators will annihilate Plague Marines, though I am well aware there are limitations to the tank: its side armor is terrible and it can't shoot at flyers. However, on the ground Vindicators are unparalleled against Necrons and Orks. 

 

Against Tyranids, predators are more reliable, volume of heavy fire is more important against their MC's and Venomthropes. 

 

TFC's are excellent against blob armies: Orks, Nids, Daemons, Blob guard, though they are best against Orks and nids. They are not reliable against C:SM, and only somewhat useful against Chaos marines. 

 

Whirlwinds are great against ork and nid armies to thin out infantry. 

 

There's more, but I think you all get the idea. 

 

Sadly I think Defilers don't fill in a niche like WWs or TFCs.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Ironclad Dreadnoughts with two heavy flamers in a drop pod.  So long as they can get past Interceptor fire, they'll murderize anything not wearing power armor.  I apply them liberally against Guardians, Rangers, Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, any kind of Guard infantry, orks -- they're especially great at roasting Lootas who think they're safe behind an Aegis Line -- and gribbly 'Nids.

[Azash]

Sadly I think Defilers don't fill in a niche like WWs or TFCs.

Off topic: I have never understood why c:csm doesn't get access to WW. The three basic rhino variants are preds, vindi's, and ww's. All marine armies should have access to these IMO.

 

On topic: Light cheap infantry as objective campers. Its so effective its an automatic so its taken for granted. Loyalist dexes have scouts with really nice cover, ATSKNF, 4+, and t4, and access to long range weapons. They won't kill a ton but they can hold an obj and help out in fire support.

 

C:CSM has cultists, what they lack in armor, toughness, and morale they make up for in cheap pts cost and blob sized units.

 

Both units also have nice synergy with other units that increase their staying power from there respective codexes. Scouts to Tech Marines, and cultists to the Dark Apostle.

[incinerator950]

Taking a Helcult formation is more effective than either a regular DA or the CS DA.  Fear for both without proximity, zealot on the brutes death, providing meatshield coversaves for ranged fire support or melee unit.  It also saves you a HQ slot. 

Conversely you could use them as a secondary assault wave, or use them with Khârn/DA, potentially with MoK, not that marks are worth taking on them.  However as the Adepticon lists, and several other tourney outcome lists, the most you'll get for them is to cap objectives and take up the minimum organization slots for allies.  Which is sadly why they're considered the best for che...competitive players. 

Sadly I've gone horribly off topic, as this was primarily about vehicles.

[Sheesh Mode]

@Incinerator950: I was hoping to eventually turn the topic in that direction, however I appreciate your restraint. 

 

@Azash & Incinerator950: I think the reason we don't have WW's is because our army is a 'better-general-cqc-marine-army' hence this expensive model called the defiler that you can put 2 Havoc Launchers and an Autocannon on to shoot with its battle cannon. It can perform 'like' a whirlwind, but its job is to do more than that by blasting infantry apart then ripping into the tanks. 

 

@Ultramini: Sure they can wound marines, however the squad sizes are too small (and the targets too infrequent) for it to matter. Furthermore, marines still have their 3+ save against the TFC. Which makes it unreliable against MEQ's as a round of shooting is more likely to reward you with nothing, than even a single dead marine. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

@Ultramini: Sure they can wound marines, however the squad sizes are too small (and the targets too infrequent) for it to matter. Furthermore, marines still have their 3+ save against the TFC. Which makes it unreliable against MEQ's as a round of shooting is more likely to reward you with nothing, than even a single dead marine. 

 

I once scored over thirty hits on a Marine Squad with a TFC in a single round of shooting.  There were no survivors.  It's the same way most people kill Terminators: make them roll enough dice, and they will fail armor saves.

[Grey Mage]

Honestly Im amazing the vindicators survived long enough to rip through a necron force- gauss weaponry should have shredded them within a turn.

Whirlwinds are almost as good, and in far less danger of being glanced to death... Id take them against any army out there with confidence, except perhaps C:SM, C:DA and C:BA where I still wouldnt be upset at the ~75pt investment. Against Necrons, Tau, Cultists, Eldar, IG, Nidz, Orks, Daemons.... its simply amazing.

[Sheesh Mode]

Against infantry heavy armies like Orks, Tyranids, blob guard, and Daemons I can see your point. The whirlwind will do wonders against the massive mobs. But against Necrons, Tau, and Eldar? I disagree.

 

Eldar tanks are too fast and their models are too few for it to matter if they are hit by the S4 AP5 Ignores Cover or the S5 AP4. You might kill a squad of Eldar/Tau - and certainly that is impressive I grant you - but you'll have to rely on other heavy weapons to break the xenos out of their tanks. Even against Dark Eldar it isn't worth it, your best bet is an S5 shot that glances on a 5 or pens on a 6, and is likely to be ignored by a coversave. Instead you would be better served with an autocannon/lascannon sponson Predator thanks to its long range and penetrating power. It is a good choice against Eldar and Tau vehicles (the highest AV between them being 12) because of its durability, relatively cheap cost, and the reasons I mentioned before regarding firepower.

 

Furthermore, the Thunderfire Cannon can always be counted on to do well against (Dark)Eldar thanks to its multiple firing modes - one of which can force skimmers to take Dangerous Terrain Tests - rate of fire, and the low armor of Eldar vehicles. Even if they are on foot they will be torn to paste by the sheer number of small blasts. However, I feel the TFC is not as useful against Necrons because of their high armor saves, toughness, and the Reanimation Protocols rule. The goal here is to identify vehicles that are overwhelmingly effective against specific enemies. Machines that give us an advantage against our enemies and exploit their weaknesses.

[incinerator950]

@Incinerator950: I was hoping to eventually turn the topic in that direction, however I appreciate your restraint. 

 

@Azash & Incinerator950: I think the reason we don't have WW's is because our army is a 'better-general-cqc-marine-army' hence this expensive model called the defiler that you can put 2 Havoc Launchers and an Autocannon on to shoot with its battle cannon. It can perform 'like' a whirlwind, but its job is to do more than that by blasting infantry apart then ripping into the tanks. 

 

@Ultramini: Sure they can wound marines, however the squad sizes are too small (and the targets too infrequent) for it to matter. Furthermore, marines still have their 3+ save against the TFC. Which makes it unreliable against MEQ's as a round of shooting is more likely to reward you with nothing, than even a single dead marine. 

 

You can't fire two havoc launchers with the battle cannon, you would have to fire them separately or use them as backup after the BC was taken out.  The BC itself is almost useless save pressuring split-ups, where as snapshot makes everything save CCW/Scourge a severe strain on its ability.  That being said, adding a dirge caster would be useful for the melee variant. 

[Sheesh Mode]

Can't walkers shoot all their weapons at once?

[Azash]

I have a hard time thinking of a vehicle that always works well. Case in point myn1750 competitive list has a grand total of four vehicles in the primary detachment.

 

Although I would add Storm Ravens to the list. 200-230 points and it pretty much always does what you want it to do. Provide a lot of fire power and be fairly resilient.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Can't walkers shoot all their weapons at once?

 

Ordnance is special; if Ordnance fires, everything else is snap shots. . . and Havoc launchers, as blast weapons, can't snap fire.

[Sheesh Mode]

I have a hard time thinking of a vehicle that always works well. Case in point myn1750 competitive list has a grand total of four vehicles in the primary detachment.

 

Although I would add Storm Ravens to the list. 200-230 points and it pretty much always does what you want it to do. Provide a lot of fire power and be fairly resilient.

Just against specific armies. 

 

 

Can't walkers shoot all their weapons at once?

 

Ordnance is special; if Ordnance fires, everything else is snap shots. . . and Havoc launchers, as blast weapons, can't snap fire.

Oy vey. Now I'm not sure what to do with Defilers. 

[minigun762]

Defilers should get dual DCCW. Now the choice is simple, blast at range of fleet and assault. Ignore the secondary guns.