Unconventional ideas

[Demus Ragnok]

Alright I'll be brief

 

The Smilodons/ Saber Fangs

 

Later founding

 

Fleet based

 

Specializing in void warfare, boarding actions, etc.

 

All of that is rather mundane, where I run off the rails is with what is next.

 

Dark Angels gene seed. But that information was intentionally withheld from the chapter.

 

Trained by a mixed training cadre of Fist, Ultra, White Scar, Raven Guard, and Salamanders successor chapters. Origins of the cadre members is also kept secret, but the heraldry of the trainers parent chapters find their way into the chapter traditions.

 

So what I'm thinking on is, Could the gene seed source be successfully hidden from the chapter. And second, how would the mixed training cadre influence the chapters doctrines and traditions.

 

Oh and I'm taking suggestions for obscure successor chapters to name to the training cadre.

 

Many thank fellow liberites.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sitnam]

Fist, Ultra, Raven Guard, White Scars, and sallies. I missed whee you said Iron hands ;)

 

I think it is possible for such a training group to be rallied together to train a new chapter. The chapters in question would have to be extremely loyal to the Administratim to keep such a secret imo. Chapters with ideal relations with the Inquisition are also preferable I'd think.

 

Both the Mentors and the Hawk Lords could be good training chapters, as they already train other chapters. Mentor geneseed is unknown, and Hawk Lords are either Raven Guard or Ultramarines depending on what source you go off of. Red Hunters are another idea with the ties to the inquisition, though their genesed is also a mystery.

 

In addition, perhaps the Death Watch could be a vehicle for this process. Their members are sworn to secrecy iirc and they also have inquisitorial ties

 

The geneseed could be hidden by those with enough authoroty, but that wont stop thm from trying to find their parent ( making relations with other chapters and comparing gene seed). Having a mixed training group may make thm dtremely versatile, but they could also be unfocused in tacics.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Quote

So what I'm thinking on is, Could the gene seed source be successfully hidden from the chapter. And second, how would the mixed training cadre influence the chapters doctrines and traditions.

One effective way to do it is to consider an ancient enemy going out of their way to destroy any type of knowledge the Chapter collects or secures; perhaps hidden within the history of the Chapter is something that another race fears or is threatened by and so ever few hundred years they make an effort to remove that threat.

 

Also, I would ask what does a cadre of different Chapters add to the whole that cannot be achieved via other methods?

[Madwolf Shadowmane]

I think the best way to hide the true geneseed origins in this circumstance is to lie.  Have a training cadre from a different geneline and have them claim to be the new chapter's geneseed origin.  I expect that due to the actual dark angel geneseed they will be extrenely secretive.  Also how would the Dark Angels feel about this as they tend to keep all of the Unforgiven together. 

[Messor]

Why are you hiding the true geneseed from them?

[Demus Ragnok]

Fist, Ultra, Raven Guard, White Scars, and sallies. I missed whee you said Iron hands

I think it is possible for such a training group to be rallied together to train a new chapter. The chapters in question would have to be extremely loyal to the Administratim to keep such a secret imo. Chapters with ideal relations with the Inquisition are also preferable I'd think.

Both the Mentors and the Hawk Lords could be good training chapters, as they already train other chapters. Mentor geneseed is unknown, and Hawk Lords are either Raven Guard or Ultramarines depending on what source you go off of. Red Hunters are another idea with the ties to the inquisition, though their genesed is also a mystery.

In addition, perhaps the Death Watch could be a vehicle for this process. Their members are sworn to secrecy iirc and they also have inquisitorial ties

The geneseed could be hidden by those with enough authoroty, but that wont stop thm from trying to find their parent ( making relations with other chapters and comparing gene seed). Having a mixed training group may make thm dtremely versatile, but they could also be unfocused in tacics.

Had originally thought of leaving out Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Iron Hands on account of their being "flawed".

The Death Watch angle had crossed my mind as well.

Quote

So what I'm thinking on is, Could the gene seed source be successfully hidden from the chapter. And second, how would the mixed training cadre influence the chapters doctrines and traditions.

One effective way to do it is to consider an ancient enemy going out of their way to destroy any type of knowledge the Chapter collects or secures; perhaps hidden within the history of the Chapter is something that another race fears or is threatened by and so ever few hundred years they make an effort to remove that threat.

Also, I would ask what does a cadre of different Chapters add to the whole that cannot be achieved via other methods?

My original thought is that the chapters gene ties have intentionally withheld by order of the higher ups.

The mixed cadre is still a work in progress idea.

I think the best way to hide the true geneseed origins in this circumstance is to lie. Have a training cadre from a different geneline and have them claim to be the new chapter's geneseed origin. I expect that due to the actual dark angel geneseed they will be extrenely secretive. Also how would the Dark Angels feel about this as they tend to keep all of the Unforgiven together.

Would the Dark Angels ever find out about the chapter heritage? I don't know.

Why are you hiding the true geneseed from them?

Good question. That's what I'm trying to sort out. It may just be a case of me wanting special snowflakes.

I really don't want them to be another "pet chapter" of the ][ or the HLoT, but it seems things may be leading that direction. Hmmm...

[Messor]

Okay. Well, I'm glad we've established that then. That's where you'll find the meat of the chapter. Here's what (maybe) makes sense to me: If there's a reason that said higher ups want the geneseed origins to be kept secret from the Dark Angels, so that they don't know about this successor of theirs, then I can 100% accept the geneseed being kept secret from the Chapter itself.

 

Part of the problem is that what you're making right now is not in any way a Dark Angels successor except for a genetic donation, which makes little to no difference. If you want them to be a part of it, it will take some careful weaving in. I think having these trainers be relatively unknown successors is a good move for further cloaking motives, but at the end of the day you have to have a really, really, really good motive. Whoever commissioned this Chapter can't have done it to learn more about Dark Angel traditions, beliefs or practices because they'll have none of that. Is there are a reason they would want to study their genetics or something with an isolated sample Chapter? Could this have Cursed Founding ties? Is it *gasp* Alpha Legion?

[Demus Ragnok]

Alright now that I've had a review of my mental notes.

 

Messor you reminded me of the original intent I had for the secrecy. The High Lords (at least some of them) are suspicious of the DA. And they found this chapter as a control experiment to see if the "bad habits" of the DA are a genetic discrepancy or simple learned behavior passed from successor to successor.

 

No one can know the chapter's lineage lest the knowledge find its way to The Rock.

 

Now how to go about getting a training cadre together and how those different traditions all come together is a beast all its own.

[Retaliation]

 

Later founding

 

Fleet based

 

Specializing in void warfare, boarding actions, etc.

 

Dark Angels gene seed. But that information was intentionally withheld from the chapter.

 

 

Well there goes any pretense of being original I had QQ.

 

Honestly the High Lords attempting to hide a chapter with DA geneseed is an amazingly fluffy (and fun!) angle. I it would be obvious to the High Lords that the issues they have with the Unforgiven are cultural in nature. Their geneseed rivals the Ultramarines in purity, they produce viable successors with no known tendency to genetically degenerate like the wolves or blood angels, and they don't have any real pathological behaviors like the iron hands. They've probably been clamoring for millennia to figure out how to use all this DA geneseed they stockpile.

 

I also had trouble with figuring out how to obscure the chapter's history from itself. I went with inquisition conspiracy in order to remove the influence of the Inner Circle, but a training cadre sounds so much better. Why not have just a single chapter supply the trainers though?  Why not just tell everyone involved it's Ultramarine geneseed (To tell the difference they'll need geneseed to compare it to, something they're never going to get from another chapter)?

[Ecritter]

When you say "no one can know", you of course mean "no one outside of the HLoT, AdMech, and any other special group that may have to know" I take it?

[Demus Ragnok]

When you say "no one can know", you of course mean "no one outside of the HLoT, AdMech, and any other special group that may have to know" I take it?

Yep.

[sitnam]

 

To tell the difference they'll need geneseed to compare it to, something they're never going to get from another chapter

 

While I think normally that'd be the case, I dont think it is out of the realm of possibility that their geneseed could get checked against another. The Soul Drinkers had their own gene seed tested against anothers, though those circumstances were fairly extreme

[Gripharius]

If you really want it to be secret, then have a small faction of the Mechanicus be the ones who decide to "experiment" with the DA geneseed.  The High Lords call for geneseed for a founding, but this Mechanicus factions wants to see if the DA "bad habits" are nature or nuture, so they submit geneseed labeled "Ultramarine" but its really DA. 

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Revise the fluff, and get rid of the idea of a training cadre composed of members of different Chapters. That's a bad idea, because the Chapters have different Rites of Battle, and the Drill Sergeants would get in each other's way, trying to retrain their charges and break "bad habits" instilled by one from a different Chapter- picture an Imperial Fist ordering the Marine recruit to stop "hiding in the shadows, as cowards do," one day, while a Raven Guard orders the same recruit to stop "standing in the open, shouting meaningless battle cries, like a suicidal fool," the next.

 

Also, there is no way the training cadre will keep their parent Chapters' identity a secret, because their pride and honor demands otherwise. The only reasons a Marine will conceal the identity of his parent Chapter, is if he's ashamed of himself- picture an Imperial Fist who fled from battle (as difficult as it may be), and who withholds the identity of his Chapter so "my shame will not diminish my Primarch and my battle-brothers' honor,"- or of his own Chapter- picture an Astral Claw who was serving in the Deathwatch when the Badab War broke out, and who remained loyal to the Emperor despite his battle-brothers' treason. And if they were to keep this secret, they'd be smart enough to NOT wear their Chapters' heraldry, knowing this would expose the secret.

[Demus Ragnok]

Revise the fluff, and get rid of the idea of a training cadre composed of members of different Chapters. That's a bad idea, because the Chapters have different Rites of Battle, and the Drill Sergeants would get in each other's way, trying to retrain their charges and break "bad habits" instilled by one from a different Chapter- picture an Imperial Fist ordering the Marine recruit to stop "hiding in the shadows, as cowards do," one day, while a Raven Guard orders the same recruit to stop "standing in the open, shouting meaningless battle cries, like a suicidal fool," the next.

 

Also, there is no way the training cadre will keep their parent Chapters' identity a secret, because their pride and honor demands otherwise. The only reasons a Marine will conceal the identity of his parent Chapter, is if he's ashamed of himself- picture an Imperial Fist who fled from battle (as difficult as it may be), and who withholds the identity of his Chapter so "my shame will not diminish my Primarch and my battle-brothers' honor,"- or of his own Chapter- picture an Astral Claw who was serving in the Deathwatch when the Badab War broke out, and who remained loyal to the Emperor despite his battle-brothers' treason. And if they were to keep this secret, they'd be smart enough to NOT wear their Chapters' heraldry, knowing this would expose the secret.

 

Yeah it would simpler to just keep the cadre unknown by just not talking about them. Or Death Watch...