b1soul Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 What would you like the stats of Valdor to be? Near-primarch? Slightly or moderately better than a highly elite marine like Sigismund? I'm not sure if Malcador will be represented on tabletop (likely not) but do you think he should be around as powerful as Magnus (in terms of destructive potential on the tabletop)? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Well, Magnus was designed by the emperor ti be powerful enough to sit on the Golden Throne. Malcador was only able to do it for a short burst and he ended up disintegrated. So, I'd have to peg Magnus as a significantly stronger tabletop psyker than Malcador. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3662320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 I expect to see Valdor in Inferno, since he led the Custodians onto the surface of Prospero alongside the Rout. As for Malcador, I can't imagine him on the field of battle, since he'd have to be unplayably powerful powerful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3662323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Personally, and not a slight to Malcador, but I never saw him as a "on the field of battle" kinda guy. More like an extremely skilled bureaucrat. Not to say he isnt a talented warrior, as he lived in times that demanded everybody be skilled with a weapon, but his talents were elsewhere. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3662330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 I want Valdor to be Primarch-esque because he's the Emperor's head body guard and all Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3662337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctus Cornix Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 What would you like the stats of Valdor to be? Near-primarch? Slightly or moderately better than a highly elite marine like Sigismund? I'm not sure if Malcador will be represented on tabletop (likely not) but do you think he should be around as powerful as Magnus (in terms of destructive potential on the tabletop)? As a whole, I personally believe that Custodes should be more powerful than any Astartes. Bigger. Faster. Stronger. Better Equipment. Valdor himself, I believe should be somewhere above Sigismund but obviously beneath the Primarch. Malcador, should definently be inferior to Magnus in terms of destructive capabilities. Any and all power he should offer should come from Buffing psychic powers and tactical buffs to the force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3662340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Having only recently been enlightened concerning Constantine Valdor, I'll say he should be Primarch worthy, with slightly less staying power. There is fluff precedent for him besting both Horus and Russ in sparring duels, but by his own admission, says in a protracted fight to the death a Primarch would always come out on top. Cheers, Jono Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3662360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctus Cornix Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Having only recently been enlightened concerning Constantine Valdor, I'll say he should be Primarch worthy, with slightly less staying power. There is fluff precedent for him besting both Horus and Russ in sparring duels, but by his own admission, says in a protracted fight to the death a Primarch would always come out on top. Cheers, Jono Is that so? I've never heard of this before.... Most interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3662363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Having only recently been enlightened concerning Constantine Valdor, I'll say he should be Primarch worthy, with slightly less staying power. There is fluff precedent for him besting both Horus and Russ in sparring duels, but by his own admission, says in a protracted fight to the death a Primarch would always come out on top. Cheers, Jono Is that so? I've never heard of this before.... Most interesting. Apparently, I Googled it and came up with an unsourced statement about beating Horus, and a referenced bit to Valdor's size (he's as big as Dorn) and his inner monologue about the protracted fight bit. Cheers, Jono Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3662366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Citation for him beating Russ and Horus sparring? I've heard this several times but can't seem to source it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3662367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Yeah, every time I find it, it is un-cited, but it does read like RT/2nd Ed. fluff. Cheers, Jono Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3662399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted April 24, 2014 Author Share Posted April 24, 2014 Having only recently been enlightened concerning Constantine Valdor, I'll say he should be Primarch worthy, with slightly less staying power. There is fluff precedent for him besting both Horus and Russ in sparring duels, but by his own admission, says in a protracted fight to the death a Primarch would always come out on top. Until someone actually provides the source(s), it's an unsubstantiated claim and nothing more Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3662443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 I would rank Valdor above even the best marines such as Sigismund but below Primarchs. I think he should probably have comparable Weapon Skill and Initiative but a bit less staying power in terms of Toughness, Wounds and Saves. Primarchs are shown to have superhuman levels of resilience and recovery. Well, Magnus was designed by the emperor ti be powerful enough to sit on the Golden Throne. Malcador was only able to do it for a short burst and he ended up disintegrated. So, I'd have to peg Magnus as a significantly stronger tabletop psyker than Malcador. I think Malcador could compete with Magnus in terms of psychic might. I challenge the comparison above. Firstly, I don't think we know that the Emperor planned for Magnus to sit on the Throne. Was that not later speculation by other characters that that may have been the Emperor's purpose? Even if it was, the Emperor's intention to use Magnus didn't factor in that he would not only have to power the astronomicon but also keep at bay the daemonic hordes trying to burst out of the failed Imperial webway. The reason Malcador stood in for the Emperor wasn't to ensure that ships could navigate in the Warp but to ensure that Terra wasn't overrun from below.In "The Sigillite" Malcador is described as moving like one who has been trained to the peak of physical condition but has now succumbed to the ravages of age. He may have a more active past than many suspect. I still think he doesn't belong on the tabletop.I would like to see his Knights Errant. In "Burden of Duty" Imperial Fists Librarian Brother Massek has a premonition that he and Garro will fight side by side together in future. To me this would most likely be at the Siege of Terra or maybe during The Scouring. so it would be possible to have them as a small allied contingent like Inquisitors in 40k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3662594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chop Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Custodians defiantly need to have better stats the Marines. I have always hated how the world eater ripped the spine of a fully armored custodian out of his body. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3662911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 It would be kind of neat to see the Custodians with 5s in all the stats Legionnaires have 4s in, 2 attacks, 2 wounds, and make each one a unit of a single model that can never join or be joined by another model. It'd put them between Astartes and the Primarchs, put their skills on pair with legion captains, and capture their observed tendency to fight as individuals rather than as squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3662979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevatar Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Agreed. Valdor should be savage enough to beat all of the Astartes bar the Primarchs themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3663041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordBrother13 Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Definitely better than Astartes but definitely under Primarch. A while back my buddies and I homebrewed some stats that we thought were doable, but we never got to making special rules for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3663330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 Definitely better than Astartes but definitely under Primarch. A while back my buddies and I homebrewed some stats that we thought were doable, but we never got to making special rules for them. I would say an average Custodes should be much closer to an Astartes than to a Primarch Blood Games is pretty clear on the matter. The physical difference is not that great. The greatest differences are mental. Astartes were bred to be pack hunters whereas Custodes were bred to be solitary hunters, so to speak. Ultimate soldiers vs. ultimate warriors. Custodes also receive different training and different gear. I believe the Custodes' training focuses on developing each individual into an army of one. Astartes' training focuses on unit cohesion and group discipline. Now the question is...if on average, a Custodes in a small-scale close combat engagement is the equivalent of two or three marines at most, how does one justify giving Valdor near-Primarch stats. Well, it's not that hard really. In my view, the Astartes are the more uniform product of a simpler process. Custodian creation is more painstaking, individualised, and time/resource-consuming. I believe the Custodian process is customised for each individual Custodian. This allows for more variation. Either Constantin Valdor is the foremost specimen among the Custodians or he was specifically designed to be their leader. I know the chances of this happening are slim...but a battle between Valdor and Arik Taranis (or at least an encounter between the two) would be epic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3663356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 If you take First Heretic as any kind of example, a Custode is way above an Astartes. Argal Tal needs to be boosted by possession to stand up in their duels where before he was smashed with embarrassing ease, so look to the Gal Vorbak as your bare minimum stats for Custodes I would say. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3663367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 And if you take The Outcast Dead as an example, two World Eater iniates without power armor will down a fully kitted out Custodian, but will lose their lives doing it. So Custodians should have stats slightly better than 40k Scouts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3663370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 One set the framework and fleshed out the fall, and rise of the Word Bearers. One broke the timeline of the setting completely and needed to be smashed back in with an audio book. I know which one I am going to take as a reference point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3663374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 If you take First Heretic as any kind of example, a Custode is way above an Astartes. LOL what? Define "way above" The elite Custodian sent to watch over a Primarch kills three Astartes with the element of surprise on his side. A fourth Astartes shoots him in the face. Primarchs are "way above" Astartes in that they wade through dozens at a time. A Custodes kills three (catching them with their pants down if you will) and then gets killed by the fourth. There's no comparison between Custodes and Primarchs. Primarchs crap all over them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3663471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I would say the difference between Custodes and Astartes is relatively simple -Astartes are your 'regular' infantryman, well trained, often well equipped but designed and trained to work as larger battle groups - in comparison the Custodes are much more like SF teams (DEVGRU, SAS, GIGN etc.) where they are incredibly focused, trained and armed to the pinnacle of availability and quite often surpassing athletes who train for one sole style... They also fight as small teams (the largest so far afaik on one op was RedWings and even then it was 20 inc a help support crew) as such they must be relied upon to fight as a team of individuals as opposed to simply a team within a larger team. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3663738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 If you take First Heretic as any kind of example, a Custode is way above an Astartes. LOL what? Define "way above" The elite Custodian sent to watch over a Primarch kills three Astartes with the element of surprise on his side. A fourth Astartes shoots him in the face. Primarchs are "way above" Astartes in that they wade through dozens at a time. A Custodes kills three (catching them with their pants down if you will) and then gets killed by the fourth. There's no comparison between Custodes and Primarchs. Primarchs crap all over them. Simply going by the sparring session and commentary around it. I'm content with my assumption, but time will tell. I agree Primarchs should (and likely will) be far beyond Custodes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3664010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I dont think Custode stats should be that much better than astartes but they should have rules that give them a clear advantage in combat, most of the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290037-constantin-valdor-and-malcador-on-tabletop/#findComment-3664016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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