Tactical squads : Plasma Cannons or Missile Launchers ?

[GreyCrow]

Hi guys !

 

Just a quick topic to discuss the heavy weapons loadout for my Tactical squads.

 

I run 2 of them in my regular lists, and they both get Lascannons. My idea here was to have a scouted lascannon shot great for shooting at light armour right off the bat. I play with RG CT, so the scout move would usually help me get in a better firing position.

 

After a few games, I have not been happy with the overall performance of that setup. First of all, I have more interesting closer range AT weapons in the form of Meltas and Melta bombs that usually give me a better bang for my buck against tanks.

 

Although the lascannons manage each time to cripple a key vehicle in Turn 1, that's all they do all game. And these 40 points don't bring me much except neutering an enemy key vehicle...

 

I was considering that because the main target of the Tactical squads is infantry, that I should roll with a Plasma Cannon or a Missile Launcher to add to the punch of the squad.

 

But as I don't have played much with both (last time I shot a missile was when you placed the template and on a 4+ it was a hit, on a 3- the blast would disappear, and scatter was only for barrage weapons), I need your experience.

 

Which is better ?

[minigun762]

Flipping it around, I'd be more worried about staring down plasma cannons compared to missiles.

 

The missile has an edge in range but it's not super meaningful because the bulk of your shooting is 24" anyway.

The missile can also threaten armor better but neither compare to a lascannon in that regard.

 

So my vote is PC.

[Mc_luhvin]

What special does the tactical squad have?

 

If it's a plasma gun, with a combi plasma, than a plasma cannon might be the better option against TEQ.

 

If you are more likely to verse tau or guard, then a missile launcher and a flamer could be a better option, the template will put more wounds on, and the ap3 of the krak missile can help take out a crisis suit with the bolters

[GreyCrow]

Well, technically, the template from the PC will make more wounds than the missile template :p But it's true the krak will improve the chances by 1 for penetrating vehicles.

 

The Tactical squad is full plasma : plasmagun, combi-plasma.

[minigun762]

 

The Tactical squad is full plasma : plasmagun, combi-plasma.

Well there is your answer, must continue theme!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'd go with the plasma cannon.  In my experience, weapons need to be massed for maximum effectiveness; the plasma cannon is a better infantry killer than frag missiles, and will be paired with other anti-infantry weapons, thus achieving the mass effect required for maximum effectiveness.

[MagicMan]

Plasma Cannon.

 

With the new codex i've built my squads as Plasma/Plasma Cannon and haven't been dissapointed so far. Really gives them some extra kick vs infantry.

[GreyCrow]

Plasma Cannon it is, then ! ;) I strongly felt towards it, but I wanted to have your insight anyways.

 

Especially now that they are the same cost as missile launchers, there are no reason not to take them imho :)

 

Additionally, this allows me to save 10 points and change my scouts for a Tactical squad, hehe !

[minigun762]

Promotion! Embrace the Black Carapace

[GreyCrow]

2 Plasma Cannons Marines coming up for tonight ! I should have a game tomorrow and will tell how they fare :p

[malorn24]

So??? how did they do?

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

I have to say PC, I fear and loath these things, In a game long ago, my shooty Terminators arrived via deepstrike, exactly where I wanted them, fired and killed the target I wanted them to, only to be wiped out by a none scattering PC shot when I failed 5 out of 5 inv saves.

If only I had used the run move to spread them out a bit first.

[minigun762]

The math hammer for plasma cannons isn't amazing but the potential and the fear that causes is significant.

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

I still don't like "It gets hot". A weapon that can kill the space marine holding it? What was the mechanicum thinking. Take a leaf from the Tau book and dial it down a notch. Heretical, I know but hey, It could be in an STC file somewhere. Right?

[tdemayo]

I've never worried much about gets hot. Even if I roll a 1, I still have a 2/3 chance of surviving. Those seem like acceptable odds (and loss ratio) to me.

[minigun762]

5.5% chance per plasma shot isn't incredibly scary to me.

[tdemayo]

Indeed.  There is an opponent shooting at your models too.  That's a heck of a lot more likely to kill them.

[GreyCrow]

Alright, I really love the Plasma Cannons !

They work well in lower points games to be honest. I didn't have the luck to kill a 5-man Terminator in one volley, but I killed 3 marines in one volley (the last 3 of the combat squad) killed one Razorback and immobilized the other. I ran 2 of them.

 

I could have done better with a better deployment, but they are really, really effective weapons against infantry and light armour. Against vehicles, a 4+ glance/pen isn't that bad, knowing that because they are larger, you have more than a 2/3 chance of hitting them.

 

I wouldn't trade the missile launchers for them at all in my playstyle. The missiles shine because of the long range, meaning you can just park them away from the bulk of the shooting and get away with them. I prefer a more frontal firebase, and I don't mind losing 1 strength to make sure I wound most of the infantry on a 2+ and ignore their armour saves :p

[minigun762]

Alright, I really love the Plasma Cannons !

They work well in lower points games to be honest. I didn't have the luck to kill a 5-man Terminator in one volley, but I killed 3 marines in one volley (the last 3 of the combat squad) killed one Razorback and immobilized the other. I ran 2 of them.

I could have done better with a better deployment, but they are really, really effective weapons against infantry and light armour. Against vehicles, a 4+ glance/pen isn't that bad, knowing that because they are larger, you have more than a 2/3 chance of hitting them.

I wouldn't trade the missile launchers for them at all in my playstyle. The missiles shine because of the long range, meaning you can just park them away from the bulk of the shooting and get away with them. I prefer a more frontal firebase, and I don't mind losing 1 strength to make sure I wound most of the infantry on a 2+ and ignore their armour saves

Would you agree with the statement that plasma cannons are superior weapons in Tactical squads while Missiles are better in Devastators?

[Azash]

Plasma Cannons were a better option in the 5th ed codex. However we have to much focused AP 2 for a scattering blast of AP 2 to be worth while.

 

Case in point it excelled at killing marines...would be phenomenal if we don't have grav weapons to rip entire tactical squads apart in a single round of shooting.

 

Well PC's kill specific MC's (is greater deamons) better than grav. Not really you hit an MC with a small blast and it does the exact same number of wounds the ML would do. You just have worse odds of landing a hit and you can't even take a snap shot if its a flying MC.

 

PC excellent at killing terminators...well to be blunt when is the last time a real competitive list took terminators? They have kind of been relegated to that "over priced for what they do" category.

 

PC as a template are not good against multi wound models. So things like cents and what not take a minimal number of wounds in comparison to the amount of wounds in the squad.

 

 

I have never been intimidated by plasma cannons nor will I ever be. Tactically my opponent has limited his options and range, that's what I see when I see plasma cannons.

 

 

I will take a missile launcher every time. It has longer range, it can snap fire, it can blast template light infantry, and its got a higher probability of successfor landing hits most of the time. As far as intimidation goes it makes your opponent realize that no matter where he is on the board that tactical squad can do him harm.

 

When it comes to combat squaring having the ability to drop a rear fire support team that has a 48" reach is very usefulll. Also it depends on your meta and list but since (in a competitive list) I am running 25 grav shots a turn, 2x str 8 ap 3 large blasts...a plasma cannon or even a plasma gun is sort of useless. Being able to put direct fire on a target or marry a blast up with a flamer and massed bolter fire to blast away blobs is more desirable.

[malorn24]

Azash- 25 grav shots is great for MEQ and TEQ but what about hordes that are running 6+ or (-) armor saves?

[GreyCrow]

Azash, I wonder what your strength 8 AP3 Large Blast weapon is, I can't seem to find it in the Marines Codex. Which ally is it ?

Because the only strength 8 AP3 weapons I can find in our Codex are the krak missiles, and they are most certainly not large blast !

Would you agree with the statement that plasma cannons are superior weapons
in Tactical squads while Missiles are better in Devastators?

This is a tough question to answer minigun. I will totally agree that 4 missile launchers are great, simply because you have 4 single hit weapons to fire instead of one. For some reason, I thought Frag missiles were strength 3 because Frag grenades are strength 3 when use as a shooting weapon !

4 ML Devastators will work well I beleive when you don't know what opponent you'll be fighting, of if you don't lack any firepower in both anti-horde and anti-vehicle. As a generalist support unit of sorts. 4 Plasma Devastators is the ultimate anti-infantry crew, while 4 Lascannon is the ultimate anti-vehicle crew.

You'll lack punch against heavy infantry, though, compared to the plasma cannon. But 4 strength 8 missiles could work wonders !

How I would run these Missile Devastators is to have 10 men and combat squad them in 2 squads with 2 ML and the rest, keeping the sergeant barebones. That makes for a 200 points unit that will effectively cover your backfield, able to target 2 different vehicles, and forcing the enemy to dedicate 2 units at least to wipe your missiles out of the face of the board.

The 6 remaining guys will effectively provide better firepower against infantry that is trying to invade your backfield, and the bolters will provide that much additional firepower against infantry to complement the relatively disappointing output of the boltguns.

[minigun762]

I think the main value of the missile launcher is that only one of them doesn't do much but when you put them together they actually have enough oomph to do something worthwhile. 

 

Four Plasma Cannons on the other hand almost seem like overkill unless you're trying to blast a TH/SS Terminator squad. Landing even a few hits will likely wipe out most heavy infantry squads. The other negative is that your max range and scope of preferred targets is smaller than a missile launcher, so you might struggle to find a viable target. 

 

That's why I made the original statement about splitting PCs up and concentrating missile launchers. 

This is even more true if you splurge on flakk missiles, as they really need to be concentrated to have any significant impact. 

[Azash]

@ malorn24 for anti horde I'm a big believer in full tactical squads and I'm currently running flamers. I also tend to run grav cents with HB. I don't like the minimal troop choices because our troops are great anti horde. I am thinking of dropping the flamers in favor of a missile for a rhino just so I can spot light anything on the board in night fight and let the Knight Titan unload on it.

 

@greycrow I like running an Imperial Knight Paladin. The extended range and the heavy stubbers add a lot to my list.

[GreyCrow]

Fair enouh, I didn't think about the Knights !