Hydriatus Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 From checking up on Thunder Warrior details...just use Codex:Chaos Marines. Low numbers so low squad size. Lack of unity like in the legions. Bloody minded and stubborn. Seems simple enough. Then use Codex:Guard for Imperial Army for now, and the Legion Astartes list for the first marines active. The rub is figuring out an army list for the other tyrants, though the Tyrant's Legion list from Badab War books fits the bill perfectly. Apart from that...we could just make it a community project but I don't know how much interest there would be in such a thing... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3663775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Hmm. Some fiction written from the perspective of Narthan Dume could be interesting... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3663776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Neither the unification wars nor the Great Crusade make a good setting for a series of novels. All they would consist of would be faction after faction being defeated by the far superior Thunder Warriors/Space Marines. No drama, no nothing. It would be interesting to get more information about who did what during those times, but there is no need for a novel about how Legion Z defeated puny enemy #3298. At least during the Scouring we have Legions fighting other Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3663794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 From checking up on Thunder Warrior details...just use Codex:Chaos Marines. Low numbers so low squad size. Lack of unity like in the legions. Bloody minded and stubborn. Seems simple enough. Then use Codex:Guard for Imperial Army for now, and the Legion Astartes list for the first marines active. You do realize that Thunder Warriors are generally bigger and stronger than Astartes. Their weakness was physical and mental instability. They were prone to mental and/or physical failure, i.e. suddenly losing sanity or physically collapsing in the middle of battle Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3663833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Their weakness was physical and mental instability. They were prone to mental and/or physical failure, i.e. suddenly losing sanity or physically collapsing in the middle of battleSince when? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3663838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 Well Outcast Dead supports them being typically stronger but having the mental and a built in expiry date kill switch, the Thunder Warrior in that kicked the World Eaters ass, also in the War Hound article it's noted the ocassional thunder warrior corpse they came across was surrounded by three or four marine corpses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3663871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydriatus Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 The problem is the limitations of a game engine. You can show all that in an RPG sure, but in a tabletop wargame...mental degradation doesn't really come down to it. In which case, use Fabius Bile's experiment's rules? Since those kinda work on the same way, Marines+ but liable to die right after the battle? Also, I disagree about the Unification Wars being a poor novel setting. Firstly, there WOULD be set backs. The Caucaus Waste Ethnarchs for one hurled the Emperor's Armies back several times before the Salamanders were called in and even then they were nearly wiped out. We are told the Emperor conquered Terra yes, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a struggle. There were saboteurs everywhere, hence the tragedy of the III Legion. Threats in the shadows, hence Custodes.Granted, it wouldn't be much different from the Horus Heresy series - a known outcome but very little known about the bits leading up to it. For example, why weren't the Tyrants executed? Why imprisoned? Granted, if we get to the invasion of Terra and they're let loose in the midst of it to set up some dangerous non-Astartes for the Scouring...as well as the Thunder Warrior subplot from Outcast Dead...But there are a lot more stories than merely military. Imagine a novel dealing with citizens of the Yndonesic Bloc trying to flee Tang's pogroms, or the warp infused battles between the Nord Afrik Conclaves and Ursh... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3663875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I'd say there's a lot more to the Unification Wars and the Great Crusade than "And then the Emperor's forces effortlessly curbstomped Enemy X-13-N-6, bringing system 45-H into compliance, and then everyone made the sign of the aquila and posed for the victory portrait." These are the sieges that ground the Iron Fourth down into hateful madness. These are the wars that the Emperor created monsters like the World Eaters and Night Lords to fight and win. Until the Heresy the closest the Emperor ever came to dying was on the forefront of the Crusade at Gorro. To pooh-pooh all possibility of dramatic tension of such wars seems a bit short sighted to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3663891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secretpaintgeek Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I'd like to see a bit more pre heresy rather than heresy if that makes sense. I have been a bit disappointed that it hasnt been covered as much as I'd have liked. I had hoped that most of the books would be about the legions without primarchs with them being reunited with the primarch at the end. I'd much rather have read a book about the self destruction of the sallies before vulkan than a full book of vulkan dying. Even some astartes taking on some of the lesser known xenos species would have been good rather than the boring bolter on bolter action we get now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3663902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 There's some stories from the unification era I wouldn't mind reading, for example the way the Emperor ended up having to negotiate with the guys from Albia, and the one where he lets a tyrant become a rogue trader overseen by the "Crimson Sons" Night Lords company. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3664065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Their weakness was physical and mental instability. They were prone to mental and/or physical failure, i.e. suddenly losing sanity or physically collapsing in the middle of battleSince when? Since the Forgeworld Horus Heresy books, Betrayal in particular I'm a bit surprised that you're ignorant of this Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3664081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Carnelian Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I bet Forge World does Age of Apostasy before Unification Wars. The Black Library lead editor also seemed to indicate that they have some plans for Sebastian Thor in the future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3664114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Their weakness was physical and mental instability. They were prone to mental and/or physical failure, i.e. suddenly losing sanity or physically collapsing in the middle of battle Since when? Since the Forgeworld Horus Heresy books, Betrayal in particular I'm a bit surprised that you're ignorant of this The only place I know of a kill-switch being mentioned is the Outcast Dead, according to a Thunder Warrior who admits he isn't exactly the most sane individual but also portrays that the only reason he's survived until then was because he was a student of the Emperor's sciences, thus making him uniquely equipped. So as much as I hate to say it, could you provide a quote? Because it seems weird that they have such a glaring battlefield weakness that during conflict they just go stupid and yet on average, each one was surrounded by three to four War Hound corpses on Cerberus-Prime. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3664156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 "Go stupid" and "be less dangerous" are not exactly the same thing. I'm not arguing that there was such a thing (because I honestly don't remember reading anything about it), just pointing out that such a thing would not invalidate the War Hounds' losses at Cerberus Prime. It could be a leading cause for it, in fact. And delicious grimdark, too. The battle that was their first blood, fighting an enemy that they would, in a way, become. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3664221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 "Go stupid" and "be less dangerous" are not exactly the same thing. I'm not arguing that there was such a thing (because I honestly don't remember reading anything about it), just pointing out that such a thing would not invalidate the War Hounds' losses at Cerberus Prime. It could be a leading cause for it, in fact. And delicious grimdark, too. The battle that was their first blood, fighting an enemy that they would, in a way, become. True, but there is no mention of the Thunder Warriors having such an instability that I recall, other than The Outcast Dead, which can be taken as a biased opinion. And if I recall correctly, the only two times the Thunder Warriors are mentioned in Betrayal are there and in an earlier bit where it lists the Emperor's genetic experiments from fixing humanity to making the Thunder Warriors to making the Astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3664242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 One problem with the Unification Wars and the Crusade: how does Forgeworld represent the vast variety of opponents? There would need to be techno barbarians, several kinds of isolated humans, multiple xenon. Really a model range and list for every planet in the Crusade. The Horus Heresy, for all its scope, is actually quite confined, from a game design perspective. There's one list (the legion list) and some minor variations, and one model range: the legions. So every rule and model gets multiple replay value, and is economic to produce. Not so, the huge variety of an earlier period. Plus, it loses the great appeal of the driving plot of the 30/40k universe: the menace of Chaos. It just becomes a sci if setting with big hair and shoulder pads. Plus chainsaws. A more limited appeal, I think... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3664379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 The Legion list as it is, is fine for Crusade purposes. I just want more fluff on the matter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3664383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 The only place I know of a kill-switch being mentioned is the Outcast Dead, according to a Thunder Warrior who admits he isn't exactly the most sane individual but also portrays that the only reason he's survived until then was because he was a student of the Emperor's sciences, thus making him uniquely equipped. So as much as I hate to say it, could you provide a quote? Because it seems weird that they have such a glaring battlefield weakness that during conflict they just go stupid and yet on average, each one was surrounded by three to four War Hound corpses on Cerberus-Prime. Well, think about it. The incidence of insanity/physical failure wasn't high enough to render the Thunder Warriors useless...but it was enough to motivate the Emperor to create the Astartes. I'm thinking the risk was significant but still manageable albeit at high cost. It's also quite likely that the augmented warriors of Terran warlords had similar problems (mental and physical instability) Betrayal (pages 26-27): Despite their many victories during the Unification Wars, the Thunder Warriors were far from perfect. Some were mentally unstable, others suffered catastrophic biological failure after an unpredictable span of years, their own superhuman physiques turning against them in the end. I suppose the passage doesn't mention the onset of sudden insanity, rather it mentions "mental instability", which might be milder [?] The catastrophic biological failure after an unpredictable span of years would be a HUGE weakness though...a major drawback for the Emperor when sending Thunder Warriors into battle. The "unpredictable span of years" is what makes it really bad. You can't don't know when a Thunder Warriors is going to collapse "catastrophically". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3664434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 The Legion list as it is, is fine for Crusade purposes. I just want more fluff on the matter. Yes, how is Terra looking pre-Emperor? I really like the tidbits we get and would love a simple sourcebook, no rules required. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3664513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Techno barbarians could be done by making a series of interchangeable kits. Sets of legs, torsos heads etc that can be built to show different styles of techno barbarianism, plus lots of different weapon options. Xenos is harder, but even in 40k they only focus on major xenos races. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3664624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Techno Barbarians could be done in a really rather simple manner (although the idea does lack certain merits): A Mark 1 Power Armour kit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3664679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Foolishness. Guilliman does what he can to prop up a dead state into a state of perpetual unlife, until a scratch prevented him from doing anything more than that. You mistake propaganda for history, brother. Figures an author of the Guilliman Heresy (heresy) would say that. You're just... not right.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3665477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyld Fireblade Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Neither the unification wars nor the Great Crusade make a good setting for a series of novels. All they would consist of would be faction after faction being defeated by the far superior Thunder Warriors/Space Marines. No drama, no nothing. It would be interesting to get more information about who did what during those times, but there is no need for a novel about how Legion Z defeated puny enemy #3298. At least during the Scouring we have Legions fighting other Legions. The Souring would be awsome. It would be great to see the White Scars, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines leading the hunt for traitors who are slipping ever further into damnation. Maybe even see the start of the split into chapters and warbands (except for the Wolves and the Alphas of course). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3665629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted April 27, 2014 Author Share Posted April 27, 2014 There's only so much legion vs legion combat can do. As seen in the early books of the series fighting unique species and human societies can be really awesome, I'd like to see more of that mixed in with further development of the primarchs relationship with each other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3665681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 I want a book about the Ullanor Crusade, just to read this mythic scene: "We've been foolish, Father. We were wrong to assume the warboss would be felled by our steel." "Perhaps not, Horus. I refuse to believe an ork cannot be defeated through the power of METAL" *guitar riff* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290084-forget-the-scouring/page/2/#findComment-3665773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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