The Glory Boys - Tempestus Scions

[TheForgottenAngel]

I've always been fascinated by the Imperial Guard but mainly due to the stormtroopers. I have seen very little discussion and even less army list thinking. While the Scions are probably not a game breaking good codex, I feel that they are definitely strong enough to hold their own. I think an area they will dominate in is the Killteam mini game.

 

What are all if your thoughts on the Glory Boys? Can they hold their own against other codexes?

[shandwen]

Ill be able to tell you in small games here shortly, and slowly in larger games. I do think they will be able to hold their own, and do well through spamage. There are the tools available to deal with every issue, the valks and oxen to deal with hordes, valks for flyer trouble, the scions themselves for elite infantry and heavy armor. In theory i really like the codex, even though i would have loved the option of vendettas and relics...

In a couple weeks i should be able to run the flyer formation, and if that does well i will attempt to run it on its own in games up to 1850 or so.

[WarriorFish]

They're not a "full" codex in that they don't have lots of available options and can't cover many unit types, so in that respect they may struggle as they don't have much variety. However as said what they do have is a tool for every job and access to some nifty formations.

They will have to play the numbers game, as the Taurox is lightly armoured so will need saturation to survive. Otherwise there's mounting them in Valkyries for some real mobility which could give them a leg up over the opposition.

So they might not have it easy against the other codices out there but they're certainly in with a chance. In the looking cool stakes though they're easily a top contender

[march10k]

I love the air assault formation, even at ~1000 points.   I would probably drop the command bird, if I could, though.  Taken as allies, they're troops, which is amazing, and the air assault formation special rules are deathwing-esque, to boot.  

 

However...I have found a reason to take stormtroopers from C:IG.  Even battle brothers can't board allied transports.  Bummer.  Adding a L2 divination psycher, and possibly a priest, to each stormtrooper squad would have been mind-blowing...but wait, if I take them from codex IG, I still can, they're just not troops any more...and those six characters cost roughly the same as the tempestor command squad, command valkyrie, and commissar lord.  And the three stormtrooper squads in their three valkyries can be either one elites and one fast attack each, or can fill up the FOC.  I'd probably go with the squadron of valks, at least, in order to make room for some sentinels, lol.

 

Anyway, with a priest to reroll either armor saves or wounds, and a psycher to give prescience and maybe another power (like ignoring cover), these guys would be incredible!  If you're strapped for points, you could even forego the valkyries, although those are reallly good in their own right.

[Shaolin_Monkey]

The priests abilities only work in combat though. And the stormtroopers don't exactly have a dragline or abilities to thrive in that environment.

 

I don't really see priests as a useful addition, they are far better suited to big guard blobs.

 

The psykers on the other hand are a very valid point. However with Tempestus primary you can ally in an Inquis from GK codex with a few henchmen and still take multiple inquisitors from C:=][= with henchmen squads inside their own Valkyries. That way the psykers can still easily keep up.

[march10k]

the point of the priest is to discourage enemy assaults more than anything else. At the price of a powerfist, they get smash, rerolls to wound, or rerolls to armor...really a fantastic deal, imho. It makes stormies good assaulters against anything T3, and more survivable against anything else. In a challenge against a single monster, use smash, and the ten cheerleaders give you two rerolls, right?

[cypherthefallenangel]

My problem with the new Stormtroopers is they just aren't that good for their points. For example, 10 Stormtroopers costs the same as a vet squad with all three doctrines and a plasma gun. You lose deep strike, krak grenades, and the hellguns but gain melta bombs, stealth, demo pack, scoring, a free plasmagun. Taking away the special ops and uber grit really hurt them, IMO. I still feel that their role remains the same. Deep striking suicide squads. They're just cheaper now.

[march10k]

Can you take all three doctrines?

 

/edit/

 

I think the point is to field the air assault formation for:

 

1.  Stupid awesome special rules that will make them kick a ridiculous amount of posterior when they grav chute in.

 

2.  4x2 hellstrike missiles for the best anti-air money can buy (as long as you're facing 1-2 fliers)

 

3.  SCORING stormtroopers

 

Athough...as mentioned, AP3 lasguns, combined with a psycher for prescience...it's pretty nasty, so the C:IG ones aren't chopped liver, either...

[shandwen]

Hellstrike missiles are one of the worst anti-anything weapons. It is ordinance, and please correct mr if I'm wrong but that means one shot at full bs, and everything else snap-fires. A nose lazcannon and heavy bolters would be more effetive.

[librisrouge]

You're not wrong. Hellstrikes should ALWAYS be swapped out for missile pods.

[march10k]

Oh, please...four hellstrikes on arrival, who cares if the 12 multilaser shots hit on 6s?  They'd need 6s to glance anyway!  Four hellstrike missiles, fired one at a time to see the result before you fire the next valkyrie is EXCELLENT anti-air.  And you still have four more for the following turn.

 

 

You're not wrong. Hellstrikes should ALWAYS be swapped out for missile pods

 

 

You mean multiple rocket pods?  S4AP6?  And I have to pay for the privilege?  I'd sooner leave unfired hellstrikes on the pylons!  In general, you're right, hellstrike missiles are pretty crappy because of the ordnance special rule.  But when you have four valkyries coming on the table together, but as individuals, not as a squadron, S8 missiles with two chances at a 50% to glance or better and a 33% chance to pen, At BS3 instead of snap-fired, that's actually better than almost any ground-based air defense.  Average of two hits that both on average at least glance?  That's not something you EVER swop out for an S4 large blast unless you know for sure that you're playing against a green tide.

[Frater Cornelius]

Ironically, the thing I like about Scions is the Taurox Prime. It is a fast fire support annoyance for the enemy capable of 12av and less or anti infantry duty. Sure it's made out of Dark Eldar armour but since it is fast and has it's dozer blade rerolls, you can always make use of cover.

 

I was actually thinking of getting a few minimum Scions for my AM army just to get access to the Primes, but I am not sure that it's worth the tax.

[shandwen]

The sad part of ordinance missiles is that the second missile snap fires. That is what kills it. That's why a single lazcannon is better.

[shandwen]

Honestly i have been more and more disappointed with the MT dex the more i read it. The warlord traits are half built for commisars and half for command squads, there were no vendettas like was promised, no options for camo netting, badly worded warlord traits, contradictions in statlines, and melta bombs can only be taken on commisars, not tempestors (unless i missed something). Even with all that i do still like it.

[march10k]

The sad part of ordinance missiles is that the second missile snap fires. That is what kills it. That's why a single lazcannon is better.

No way. a lascannon costs more, and while it has better potential AP, the ordnance missile has better average AP and more consistent AP. And who's forcing you to fire both missiles in the same turn?

[shandwen]

Against most flyers a heavy bolter can glance, so 6 shots would average a glance every two turns or so, and the average number from two dice is only one point higher for rolling two and taking the highest, and a lazcannon is ap2, so gets a boost on exploding an enemy. So, the added heavy bolter shots, and the str 9 ap2 single shot work out noticeably better than an ordinance hunter-killer. It does cost more, but the flyer already costs enough to make that a very minor issue.

[librisrouge]

Hellstrike = 4.62% chance of killing AV12 per missile

Lascannon = 8.33% chance of killing AV12 per shot

 

Hellstrike = 6.25% chance of killing AV11 per missile

Lascannon = 11.11% chance of killing AV11 per shot

 

Hellstrike = 7.40% chance of killing AV10 per missile

Lascannon = 13.89% chance of killing AV10 per shot

 

That is in the bubble of only shooting to kill with a single shot and discounting the enemy having a save but it still highlights the fact that a single lascannon is almost twice as good as a hellstrike missile, in addition it can fire every turn and doesn't force snap fires from the other weapons. I'd gladly pay a measly ten points for that. I'd also fork out an additional ten points for the multiple rocket pods. They help the Valkyries (assuming they aren't dogfighting) to offer fire support against something that stormtroopers fear, massed numbers. Gaunt, orks, and guardsmen beware. Let the stormtroopers themselves focus on stomping heavy infantry.

[shandwen]

Honestly to me this mini codex is like a stripped down swiss army knife. Our scions squads do great against heavy infantry and armor, out flyers against hordes, our trucks (and fortifications) giving long range fire support or close up dakka. We have the tools for everything, but the downside is there is at most two different units that can do any task.

[march10k]

Against most flyers a heavy bolter can glance, so 6 shots would average a glance every two turns or so, and the average number from two dice is only one point higher for rolling two and taking the highest, and a lazcannon is ap2, so gets a boost on exploding an enemy. So, the added heavy bolter shots, and the str 9 ap2 single shot work out noticeably better than an ordinance hunter-killer. It does cost more, but the flyer already costs enough to make that a very minor issue.

 

So the free S6 weapon isn't good enough, but you want to pay extra points to add some S5 weapons because they'll get you two glances per game (against what AV?), provided that the valk lives long enough...brilliant, you do it your way, I won't talk you out of it!

 

Hellstrike = 4.62% chance of killing AV12 per missile

Lascannon = 8.33% chance of killing AV12 per shot

 

Hellstrike = 6.25% chance of killing AV11 per missile

Lascannon = 11.11% chance of killing AV11 per shot

 

Hellstrike = 7.40% chance of killing AV10 per missile

Lascannon = 13.89% chance of killing AV10 per shot

 

That is in the bubble of only shooting to kill with a single shot and discounting the enemy having a save but it still highlights the fact that a single lascannon is almost twice as good as a hellstrike missile, in addition it can fire every turn and doesn't force snap fires from the other weapons. I'd gladly pay a measly ten points for that. I'd also fork out an additional ten points for the multiple rocket pods. They help the Valkyries (assuming they aren't dogfighting) to offer fire support against something that stormtroopers fear, massed numbers. Gaunt, orks, and guardsmen beware. Let the stormtroopers themselves focus on stomping heavy infantry.

 

The reason that we're talking past one another is that we're not talking about the same thing.  You're comparing the abysmally low chance of one-shotting an enemy bird with either the hellstrike or the lascannon.  I'm talking about the chance of at least glancing with either weapon.  We're both right, but we have different philosophies.  Here are my maths:

 

Lascannon vs. AV12:  1/2 miss, 1/3 of hits fail to at least glance, for a net of .33 chance to at least glance.

 

Hellstrike+snap-shotting multilaser vs. AV12:  

 

Hellstrike:  Half miss, half of first pen die fail to at least glance, half of second die fail to at least glance for .375 chance to at least glance.  As I said, the hellstrike is more consistent, but we're not done.  Each snap shot from the multilaser has a 1/36 chance to glance, or .028, three of them adding .083 to the .375, for a total of .458.  

 

Your version is twice as likely to one-shot an AV12 flier, but it still happens an average of once in three or four games (taking into account that you can't be on the board before turn two, it might be later, and the variable game length, and the possibility of being shot down yourself), not worth writing home about!  My version is nearly half again as likely to do something useful on arrival, which is more important to me than the long odds of winning the jackpot.  I'm not willing to pay 20-40 extra points to go from outstanding success once in eight games to once in four games, especially if I take a big hit in the "at least do something" department in the process.  And it is at least 20, since the ordnance rule on the hellstrikes make them totally incompatible with the lascannon.  If you replace the multilaser, you're replacing the hellstrikes, as well.

[librisrouge]

I see what you're getting at, but correctly me if I'm wrong, and it can be best summed up as "Crap isn't worth upgrading to twice crap since neither is going to do anything inspiring anyway so stick to the free option that might at least keep the enemy on its toes." Does that sum it up?

 

I'd like nothing more that 6.5 edition to fix this. I want to field the air cavalry formation.

 

Listen up GW! If you fix this I'll buy four Valkyries! And some more stormtroopers!

[march10k]

Well...neither version is crap, per se... I mean, 4x a .46 chance of doing something will often bring down a flier, especially when you have the slim chance of a single valk getting two results out of its four shots.  At the same time, the lascannon version, times four, nets a 1/3 chance of a single shot outright kill, versus a 1/6 chance for the basic version.  The main reason for me to take them is as reliable transportation for my stormtroopers...with the air cav formation, they get a ton of special rules, and they're still four individual fast attack choices, not dedicated transports, without busting FOC.  The fact that they provide decent anti-air is a welcome bonus, but I wouldn't field any version of the valkyrie for its shooting...Hell, a vendetta is five points more than a fully-upgraded one, if I want a flying gun, there's my answer!

[librisrouge]

Agreed. All the air cav lists I make ally into IG with a Vendetta and blobs.

[march10k]

Hmmm...my air cav joins a guard list of forward sentries in deep cover (3++ in ruins!) and tanks.  The air cav provides anti-air, mobile scoring, and direct application of melta-licious  fool-pitying, while the IG primary detachment does what guard does best...dakka.