Underwhelmed by Dorn

[KBA]

More and more people jumping on the heresy boat are getting caught up in rules? Nothing gold can stay.

[Sevatar]

What?

 

It is only natural some of us are concerned about the rules - some are gamers after all. I don't begrudge anyone their fluff, so i don't see why anyone should look down on me for being irked when the rules don't match the fluff. I don't see why it is hard to accept some people play the game for both. 

[blackoption]

Well, a number of us have yet to receive our copy of the books yet.  So I will reserve any judgement for or against any rules until I get it.  From what I have heard, yes Dorn is a cheaper, but I do not think that makes him ineffective.  He is more of a commander than a brawler in my mind anyways. 

[Sevatar]

Agreed. His army benefits are the best so far, in my opinion. Also, when equipped with Forgebreaker he is ~100 less than Perturabo, 385 to Perturabo's 490. Providing  +D3 to any combat results is huge in 30k, and with his Crusader providing rules.....you've got them :)

[Russ Brother 92]

That and having a 20 man squad with their invuls and a likely attached apothecary, potentially all toting power weapons are a squad that can butcher most anything short of terminators... Sounds pretty awesome compared to my IHs suicide squad...

[Noctus Cornix]

That and having a 20 man squad with their invuls and a likely attached apothecary, potentially all toting power weapons are a squad that can butcher most anything short of terminators... Sounds pretty awesome compared to my IHs suicide squad...

Outside of the Primus Medicae, Warders can't be attached with an Apothecary, no special unit can. The Apothecaries have a restricted list of units they can join, unless it's been FAQed

[Marshal Rohr]

Someone mentioned it being allowed in the FAQ'd edition of the Legion List. 

[Noctus Cornix]

That would be nice

[TemujinZero]

That and having a 20 man squad with their invuls and a likely attached apothecary, potentially all toting power weapons are a squad that can butcher most anything short of terminators... Sounds pretty awesome compared to my IHs suicide squad...

A 20 man squad all carrying power weapons?  That would come to 605 points.  Six.  Hundred.

 

Phalanx Warders pay a 30 point premium for their fairly useless rule on a 10 man squad, but this inflates to a 80 point premium for 20 man unit.  Regular breachers were already one of the weaker units in 30K and were only remotely justifiable in 20 man blobs.  80 points is crazy.  And I don't think we really need to seriously discuss paying 10 points each to give 1A models a power axe.  Fun trivia - if you do give your Phalanx Warders power axes, they miss out completely on that useless special rule that you're paying 30-80 points for.

 

Regular breachers are a unit that pays hundreds of points for defensive upgrades, but at the end of the day only receive a 6++ against most of the big weapons that threaten large squads.  Regular Tactical Marines beat them hands down.  But regular breachers are hands down a better unit than Phalanx Warders.  It would be hard to spend that 80 points in a worse way than by throwing it away on an already overcosted squad that has no damage output in close combat.

[Moonstalker]

 

That and having a 20 man squad with their invuls and a likely attached apothecary, potentially all toting power weapons are a squad that can butcher most anything short of terminators... Sounds pretty awesome compared to my IHs suicide squad...

A 20 man squad all carrying power weapons?  That would come to 605 points.  Six.  Hundred.

 

Phalanx Warders pay a 30 point premium for their fairly useless rule on a 10 man squad, but this inflates to a 80 point premium for 20 man unit.  Regular breachers were already one of the weaker units in 30K and were only remotely justifiable in 20 man blobs.  80 points is crazy.  And I don't think we really need to seriously discuss paying 10 points each to give 1A models a power axe.  Fun trivia - if you do give your Phalanx Warders power axes, they miss out completely on that useless special rule that you're paying 30-80 points for.

 

Regular breachers are a unit that pays hundreds of points for defensive upgrades, but at the end of the day only receive a 6++ against most of the big weapons that threaten large squads.  Regular Tactical Marines beat them hands down.  But regular breachers are hands down a better unit than Phalanx Warders.  It would be hard to spend that 80 points in a worse way than by throwing it away on an already overcosted squad that has no damage output in close combat.

 

I don't have the book, so, I'm just kinda throwing this out there, but it sounds like they have a slightly complicated combination:

 

1: Small squad, power axes and 3+/5+ saves, go in against a tactical squad.  They chop up maybe 5 models, but don't lose too many in return.

2: Win combat, gets +d3 to resolution from Dorn, force very unfavorable Ld check for enemy squad (perhaps as much as -5 or -6 to Ld?).

3: Using their Initiative 5 + crusader, run down the enemy squad with a sweeping advance after they break.

 

So, in that way, they can repeatedly break blocks of tactical marines.  Even breaking one block like that could probably earn their points back.  Not saying they're good, but I can see a potential use for them.

[marshal seanisi]

@TemujinZero:  Take a minute and reread the army buffers provided to Phalanx Warders and Breachers from Dorn.  Better toughness better initiative if charged and better ballistic skill!  Now I agree I wouldn't load the entire Phalanx squad with Power Weapons, but I would mix some in just to add more punch.

[Marshal Rohr]

People hate on breachers a fair amount for no real reason. They don't lose to tactical squads in combat, they can take special weapons to pop dreadnoughts and tanks. They can upgrade the breaching charge to blow a hole in fortifications, useful when your enemy takes a bastion.  They are resilient to most everything that shoots them, except the above noted big pie plates, but then again what unit isn't...

[TemujinZero]

 

 

That and having a 20 man squad with their invuls and a likely attached apothecary, potentially all toting power weapons are a squad that can butcher most anything short of terminators... Sounds pretty awesome compared to my IHs suicide squad...

A 20 man squad all carrying power weapons?  That would come to 605 points.  Six.  Hundred.

 

Phalanx Warders pay a 30 point premium for their fairly useless rule on a 10 man squad, but this inflates to a 80 point premium for 20 man unit.  Regular breachers were already one of the weaker units in 30K and were only remotely justifiable in 20 man blobs.  80 points is crazy.  And I don't think we really need to seriously discuss paying 10 points each to give 1A models a power axe.  Fun trivia - if you do give your Phalanx Warders power axes, they miss out completely on that useless special rule that you're paying 30-80 points for.

 

Regular breachers are a unit that pays hundreds of points for defensive upgrades, but at the end of the day only receive a 6++ against most of the big weapons that threaten large squads.  Regular Tactical Marines beat them hands down.  But regular breachers are hands down a better unit than Phalanx Warders.  It would be hard to spend that 80 points in a worse way than by throwing it away on an already overcosted squad that has no damage output in close combat.

 

I don't have the book, so, I'm just kinda throwing this out there, but it sounds like they have a slightly complicated combination:

 

1: Small squad, power axes and 3+/5+ saves, go in against a tactical squad.  They chop up maybe 5 models, but don't lose too many in return.

2: Win combat, gets +d3 to resolution from Dorn, force very unfavorable Ld check for enemy squad (perhaps as much as -5 or -6 to Ld?).

3: Using their Initiative 5 + crusader, run down the enemy squad with a sweeping advance after they break.

 

So, in that way, they can repeatedly break blocks of tactical marines.  Even breaking one block like that could probably earn their points back.  Not saying they're good, but I can see a potential use for them.

 

 

Small squads of breachers just aren't viable.  A 10 man Phalanx Breacher squad with power axes sets you back a minimum of 355 points.  A block of 20 tactical marines (100 points cheaper) in a position to charge them could just wipe them out with their bolters.  Breachers die to bolters just like tactical marines.  A block of 20 tactical marines with close combat weapons (still 60 points cheaper) would stand a good chance of winning combat anyway since the breachers only get one attack (boarding shields don't allow additional attacks for having two weapons).  Only the squad that Dorn joins gets crusader.  Not that it matters anyway.  Breachers aren't going to get into combat.  They have limited transport options and die easily to shooting.

 

@TemujinZero:  Take a minute and reread the army buffers provided to Phalanx Warders and Breachers from Dorn.  Better toughness better initiative if charged and better ballistic skill!  Now I agree I wouldn't load the entire Phalanx squad with Power Weapons, but I would mix some in just to add more punch.

 

Dorn doesn't provide any buffs to warders or breachers that other squads don't also get.  The toughness comes from the borderline unusuable RoW, the initiative is built in to the warders anyway, and the ballistic skill boost to bolters is something all IF units have.

 

The RoW requires that you take two units of regular breachers.  It also makes warders troops (as does Dorn), but at that point you're talking about having 3+ units of the weakest troop choice in the game.  T5 is nice but being forced to cram half your army with overpriced units with no damage output is not.

 

If you want to use Dorn's buffs, try applying them to units that don't suck.  Dorn also makes terminators troops.  Tactical squads are superior to breachers in every way.  Templar Brethren are cheaper than Warders and would utterly wipe them out in combat.  They also have artificer armour, so ironically stand up better to shooting too.

[TemujinZero]

People hate on breachers a fair amount for no real reason. They don't lose to tactical squads in combat, they can take special weapons to pop dreadnoughts and tanks. They can upgrade the breaching charge to blow a hole in fortifications, useful when your enemy takes a bastion.  They are resilient to most everything that shoots them, except the above noted big pie plates, but then again what unit isn't...

 

They don't lose to tactical squads?  I think they get crushed by equal points of tactical squads, especially if you don't tie their hands behind their backs by removing shooting from the equation.

 

Their 'resilience' to shooting amounts to a 6++ in most cases.  Take the hundred+ points you spent getting that 6++ and use it to add bodies to your tactical squads.  That will give you vastly more resilience against shooting.

 

The only reason to take breachers is because they look awesome.  Their rules are a total disaster.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think you must have confused this with some other, tournament appropriate game. 

[Vazzy]

I think you must have confused this with some other, tournament appropriate game. 

Seriously? Just because he doesn't think they're great doesn't mean he's all comp all the time. Breachers are a terrible use of points. I'd know, I use them a lot. For the amount I'm spending them (400ish pts) I can get almost double that amount in normal tacticals. Yeah, breachers are cool, but they lose out to tactical squads in almost every case. Just because 30k is a more "thematic" game doesn't mean you should cripple yourself in regards to points and units that are subpar. And this is coming from someone who prefers theme over list building.

[jeremy1391]

Dorn always has the being wounded on no greater than a 3+ rule from his armor also which adds to his survivability, he also shines against non primarch baddies because he can ID things with his big nasty sword. And let's not forget about his personal THUNDERHAWK! That bad mamajamma has a void shield AND a 4++

 

Oh you brought horus? Oh you used up your lord of war slot? Well I've got Dorn and his ride! Even horus can't stand up to the D!

[Marshal Rohr]

Breachers excel in Zone Mortalis missions where large pie plates are not a factor, and the short ranges allow you to make use of the Defensive Grenades aspect of the Boarding Shields. Tactical Squads can't take a special weapon, which forces the Power Axe/Meltabomb combo on sergeants, Breachers can. So when that dual claw contemptor comes around the ship corridor, my breachers have a much better chance of surviving than my tacticals. Zone Mortalis is optimized for smaller point games (<1000), but they don't get too bogged down if kept around 1850pts. My point is, Breachers are meant for Zone Mortalis games. A Praetor with the Stone Gauntlet RoW and an IF army with lots of Warders and Breachers, backed by a few comptemptors and apothecaries is a terribly nasty foe in Zone Mortalis, much more effective than if they were playing an Age of Darkness game on a Realm of Battle Board with the rule book suggested amount of cover. If you are playing a larger point game and want to take breachers, it needs to be a city fight board or something similar with lots of LoS blocking terrain. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Dorn always has the being wounded on no greater than a 3+ rule from his armor also which adds to his survivability, he also shines against non primarch baddies because he can ID things with his big nasty sword. And let's not forget about his personal THUNDERHAWK! That bad mamajamma has a void shield AND a 4++

 

Oh you brought horus? Oh you used up your lord of war slot? Well I've got Dorn and his ride! Even horus can't stand up to the D!

 

 

The Aetos Dios is very, very nasty. Its 300 points cheaper than a regular hawk and doesn't max out the LoW slot (though Dorn does). Also, you have to be playing a game of at least 4000 points to take it, which in its own way, is a little prohibitive. The TH is way more survivable than a standard bird with its void shield, and IWND keeps it flying even when it does take damage. 

[GhostMalone]

We gotta remember this is only the intro to the fists by the time the siege rolls around new RoW FoC and other rules will correct any unbalance.

 

 

Look at the WE they got it tough as did the IH

 

If you love your army add units you love.

[Vazzy]

Breachers excel in Zone Mortalis missions where large pie plates are not a factor, and the short ranges allow you to make use of the Defensive Grenades aspect of the Boarding Shields. Tactical Squads can't take a special weapon, which forces the Power Axe/Meltabomb combo on sergeants, Breachers can. So when that dual claw contemptor comes around the ship corridor, my breachers have a much better chance of surviving than my tacticals. Zone Mortalis is optimized for smaller point games (<1000), but they don't get too bogged down if kept around 1850pts. My point is, Breachers are meant for Zone Mortalis games. A Praetor with the Stone Gauntlet RoW and an IF army with lots of Warders and Breachers, backed by a few comptemptors and apothecaries is a terribly nasty foe in Zone Mortalis, much more effective than if they were playing an Age of Darkness game on a Realm of Battle Board with the rule book suggested amount of cover. If you are playing a larger point game and want to take breachers, it needs to be a city fight board or something similar with lots of LoS blocking terrain. 

Well sure. And they're excellent for those sort of scenarios, just like my flamer support squads,Heavy flamer support squads and Characters with Thunder hammers and shotguns. They fill an excellent role in that regard. But I don't know about you but I don't get to play Zone Mortalis all that much, so I would value a unit based on the more common type of gaming, which would be the pitched battle on a normal table. I feel if they can't do all that well on the main type of gaming there is something wrong with that considering how well balanced everything else is. 

[TemujinZero]

I think you must have confused this with some other, tournament appropriate game.

How stupid of me.

 

I still take breachers because I'm in this for the theme. I just wish they were as well balanced as most other 30K units.

 

Having the weakest unit in the game for the IF unique unit is a bit of a kick in the teeth though.

[Marshal Rohr]

Zone Mortalis is the simplest and easiest way to get started in the HH. Maybe its just me, but it feels like more people buy Zone Mortalis forces than AoD forces. Again, no qualitative source for that, just quantitative research from here and other places around the net. Most people (I've seen) do just enough to play ZM or they go whole hog and buy Apocalypse armies. Not very many in-between. 

[jeremy1391]

The Aetos Dios is very, very nasty. Its 300 points cheaper than a regular hawk and doesn't max out the LoW slot (though Dorn does). Also, you have to be playing a game of at least 4000 points to take it, which in its own way, is a little prohibitive. The TH is way more survivable than a standard bird with its void shield, and IWND keeps it flying even when it does take damage.

It's 3000 points to use it so not that prohibitive considering 2500 is the norm for horus heresy. And if you are using primarchs most people are going to run them with some form of death star ala spartan full of termies with horus etc. which is gonna clock in at about 1K by itself. Whereas Dorn and his ride clock in at 985 leaving 2015 points to support Dorn and his plane of awesome!

 

Aetos Dios is one major reason to run Dorn!

[depthcharge12]

Come on guys, let's not quarrel...the real enemy are *those* 40k players :P they did make a couple threads complaining about us

 

 

/end sarcasm/