Reign of Chaos (A Chaos Revamp project)

[maverike_prime]

Last updated: 9/30/14

Well guys that's it. I'm done. I have literally been ham strung from continuing this project in any meaningful way. What am I talk about? The point that 40k as an ongoing friendly game environment in this area is dead. The one store with in an hours drive in any direction for me, that has play space is situated in an out of the way shopping center that frankly is a pain to get into under normal circumstances, is currently all but inaccessable due to road construction cutting off the most direct access to the shopping center, followed by the second most direct route being declared private property and being barred to through traffic. So now to get to the shop it's make a left on this road that leads into the depths of the forest of doom, now make another left onto the trail of endless woe, then make another left and go over the bridge of infinite death, then make a right and go through the Cave of unending hardships and finally pass through the gates of unending torment.

Yes, I'm talking about making a 7 mile trip through residential areas, about 80% of which are blind turns at 4-way stops in place of going 1 mile on the main road. Thank you country road work. What does this have to do with playing 40k for me? Simple.

Of the the already barely present group of people who had an interest in 40k, only 2 of them would agree to allow me to play test this codex against them (They were tau and Eldar players btw). And with the difficulty in getting to the shop now, they're not coming in for 40k any longer. So, now I have 0 ability to play test the rules.

So... yeah. It was a good run. I'd have liked to finish all three books, but with out the ability to play test anything, it's nothing more then rules-masterbation. Sorry guys. I gave it my best shot.

Updated: 8/26/14

- Changed pricing on the Mutilators

updated: 08/23/14

- stream-lined the Chaos Boon Table

- Changed Chaos Chosen so max squad size is now 20 models

- Changed cost of Ahirman to 240 points

- Obliterators dropped to 75 points each, gained a second power fist.

- On Chaos Lord, replaced "And They Shall Know no fear" with "They know neither fear, nor loyalty"

- fixed verbiage on Warp Talons regarding Peerless hunter.

- Added Mutilators V1.0

updated: 06/6/14

-Added Ahirman spread vs 1.0

This is the modified army list for this project. The pages here are assumed to supersede the corresponding pages in the Codex: Chaos Space Marines book.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Vuuax5X3z8A/U1X1Zt4RL7I/AAAAAAAABQM/F4lx-SePnBI/s1600/codex-cover-web.png

As the project has advanced, we began making large format 2 page spreads for the entry in preperation for producing the actual PDF file that we are ultimately moving to make, These spreads are linked below in 3 forms. The thumbnail themselves, which are linked to a 72 ppi resolution view of the spread. Directly below the thumbnaill is another link to to a High Resolution 300 PPI version of the spread. Some of the spreads get quit text heavy, so the 72 PPI spread become hard to read, thus why the 300 PPI versions are available.

Any text on the spread that is rendered in green, like this, means that the information or rule is there, but is still under consideration for change. By this I mean the rule is there on paper, but I am not convinced it is correct or right so I am still very heavily looking at it.

Head Quarter Units

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/abaddon(thumb).png

Abaddon the Despoiler Version 2.0

Abaddon the Despoiler Version 1.0

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/ahriman(thumb).png

Ahriman Version 2.1

Ahriman Version 2.0

Ahriman Version 1.0

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/typhus(thumb).png

Typhus, Herald of Nurgle (Unchanged from Codex)

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/huron(thumb).png

Huron Blackheart (Unchanged From Codex)

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/chaos_lord(thumb)6_2_14.png

Chaos Lord Version 3.0

Chaos Lord Version 2.0

Chaos Lord Version 1.0

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/chaos_commander(thumb)-6_2_14.png

Chaos Commander Version 1.0

Elite Units

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/warpsmith(thumb).png

Warp Smith Version 1.0

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/chaos_chosen(thumb).png

Chaos Chosen Version 1.5

Chaos Chosen Version 1.0

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/thousand_sons(thumb).png

Thousand Sons Version 4.1

-Version .1

-Version .2

-Version .3

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/helbrute(thumb).png

Helbrute Version 1.0

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/berzerkers(thumb).png

Khorne Berzerkers Version 4.0 (Updated: 5/27/14)

-Version 3

-Version 2

-Version 1

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/plague_marines(thumb).png

Nurgle Plague Marines Version 1.0

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/maverike_prime/Warhammer/Chaos%20Space%20Marines/Chaos%20Codex%20Revamp/8-25-14/thumbnails/mutilatorsspread_zpsb84d4eba.png

Mutilators Version 1.6

Mutilators Version 1.5

Mutilators Version 1.0

Fast Attack Units

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/chaos_bikers(thumb).png

Chaos Bikers Squad Version 2.0

-Version 1.0

*Chaos Bikers had previously used a double card layout due to size and design. Link for 2nd page: Bikers: Dedication to the Gods upgrade.

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/warp-talons(thumb).png

Warp Talons Version 1.0

Heavy Support

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/Obliterators(thumb).png

Obliterators Version 1.6

Obliterators Version 1.5

Obliterators Version 1.0

Chaos Armoury (Now with revamped Chaos Boon Table!)

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/lost_and_damned_1(thumb).png

Armory page 1 and 2. Covers Champions of Chaos and warlord traits. Version 1.0

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/lost_and_damned_2(thumb).png

Armour page 3 and 4, Covers marks and melee weapons Version 1.0

Favor of the Gods Armory page (Full ress image) This is the page that details the respective abilities the Lord would have access to based on their Mark or lack of one.

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/lost_and_damned_07(thumb).png

Previously, we had made smaller quick reference cards for the purposes of reference and game testing. These cards are listed below, but are superseded by material posted above.

Project progress: Below you see a list of units, psychic power tables, and army list modification. If the unit has (Codex) listed next to it, it means that there have been no modifications to the unit and the entry as it appears in the Codex: Chaos Space Marines book. If the unit listing provides a link and provides a version number (such as V.2 and V2.0) that means we have been working on revamping that project and it is linked to the most current unit card for that unit. If there are multiple version numbers listed below the unit in question, this means that we have gone through multiple revisions of the unit but are still providing links to the old unit cards for comparison sake. The individual version numbers will be linked to the older cards.

HQ

Abaddon the Despoiler V.1

Huron Black Heart (Codex)

Khârn the Betrayer (Codex)

Ahriman (Codex)

Typhus (Codex)

Lucius the Eternal (Codex)

Fabius Bile (Codex)

Chaos Lord (Codex)

Sorcerer (Codex)

Daemon Prince (Codex)

Warp Smith (Codex)

Dark Apostle (Codex)

Troops

Chaos Space Marines V.1

Chaos Cultists (Codex)

Chaos Legionary Squad V.2

Elites

Chosen V.1

Possessed (Codex)

Chaos Terminators (Codex)

Helbrute (Codex)

Mutilator (Codex)

Khorne Berzerkers V.3

-Version .1

-version .2

Thousand Sons V.4

-Version .1

-Version .2

-Version .3

Plague Marines (Codex)

Noise Marines (Codex)

Dedicated Transport

Chaos Rhino V.1

Chaos Drop Pod V.1

Fast attack

Chaos Bikers V.1*

*Chaos Bikers are presently using a double card layout due to size and design. Link for 2nd page: Bikers: Dedication to the Gods upgrade.

Chaos Spawn (Codex)

Raptors (Codex)

Warp Talons V.1

Heldrake (Codex)

Heavy Support

Havocs V.1

Obliterator (Codex)

Defiler (Codex)

Forgefiend (Codex)

Maulerfiend (Codex)

Chaos Land Raider (Codex)

Chaos Vindicator (Codex)

Chaos Predator (Codex)

Psychic Discipline Tables

Tzeentch Powers V.1

Nurgle Powers (Codex)

Slaanesh Powers (Codex)

Chaos Marine Traits

///////////////////////////////////Original First post\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Okay so before I begin I want to say I'm not saying that Codex: Chaos Space Marines can not build playable lists. I've heard from tournament players what kinds of lists work best. And here's my first issue with Codex: Chaos Space Marines comes into it: I keep hearing the same thing, over and over and over again. Nurgle daemon princes with wings, 1-3 Plague marines, 1-2 units of Noise marines, and 1-3 Heldrakes. Some times I'll hear someone talking about taking Typhus so that they can run mobs of plague zombies and I heard one guy talk about running a Melta-gun equipped Nurgle biker unit. But that's about all I hear about in connection to CSM lists.

And it got my brain rolling, why don't I hear about Khorne Berzerkers or Thousand sons? T-sons are spitting out AP3 bolt shots. Those should be ripping through MEQs with out question. Berzerkers get 4 attacks on the charge. Field 12-14 of these guys and you're hitting targets with 48 attacks on the charge. I mean even horde armies are gonna look at that and go "Um... boss, you sure about this?" And what about Mutilators? They form the weapon they need when they need it, they've got 2 wounds with a 2+/5++. Stick Mark of Nurgle and they become T5, give 'em Mark of Tzeentch and they get a 4++. Give 'em Mark of khorne and they get 5 attacks on the charge plus counter attack. And Chaos Terminators? Why don't I hear about those bad-mofos? I mean they're Terminators with better options. Give 'em Lignting claws and mark of Khorne. Those dude are gonna tear some up! And on that note, how about Warp Talons? Those guys have outstanding models, and they come with Lightning claws! Who isn't afraid of a unit of 10 lightning claw equipped jump packers? Given Mark of Khorn and that's 40 AP3 attacks hitting you in the face that get to re-roll failed to-wounds. That hurts! A lot! And as a side note, why do I only ever see people using possessed bits and never the possessed themselves?

So yeah? Why don't we hear about more of these units being used in game? So I started looking into it. Here's what I've found:

Khorne Berzerkers: Okay, they're Khorne Berzerkers. Give 'em Chain axes and they get AP4 attacks, but then they cost 22 points each. They get 4 attacks on the charge, but regular CSMs can get that too. And at 2 points less then naked Khorne Berzerkers. But the Chain Axe makes them AP4... So 4 attacks at WS4 with S5 on the charge with LD 9/10 for 24 (roughly) points for a CSM compared to 4 attacks at WS5 with S5 With LD 9/10 and fearless on the charge with AP4 for 25 (roughly) points for a Berzerker.... huh... Not really sure that's worth it most of the time. Sure be nice if I'm fighting a horde army of Nids or Infantry swarms of Guard. But against MEQs... I mean I guess they work out alright. They're basically CSMs in red once everything is said and done.

Thousand Sons: okay.... 150 points.... for 4 T-sons and a Sorcerer. Okay. Not too bad right there. They are 3+/4++ with AP3 bolters that can basically ALWAY fire twice at 12" and then charge after that... I don't honestly know why you would charge with Thousand Sons. It's important to know that you can! Besides, it's not like anyone will be charging you since you can over watch them into oblivion with your AP3 bolters! Oh... wait. They're Slow and Purposeful. That means they can't over watch.

Well you get a Level 1 psychic with that order so that's cool! He gets to roll on the.... tzeentch table. So he might get... a power he can't actually use because it's Warp power 2. So you'd switch it out for the Primaris power with a 24" range S: D6+1 no AP assault 1 Blast that can generate up to 3 additional S3 hits. Okay, not bad not bad. Nothing really pants dropping but not bad. Might get boon of Mutation, so I can roll on the Boon Table. Okay, Um... I've got a chance to become a spawn or get nothing compared to everything else. And it's limited to a range of 2".... Um yeah. That's a scoop of random with some random sauce and some random sprinkles thrown against a random wall for a random reason. OH! I might get doom bolt! Which... yeah, it's doom bolt. 18" range, S8, AP1 assault1! That'll hurt! But yeah... it's a 1 in 3 shot of getting it.

Possessed: Er... yeah. 26 points a model. the 3+/5+ is nice as it the 2 attacks, and if you given 'em Mark of Khorne they get 4 attacks on the charge promised and the Strength 5 is nice extra. But... they don't really get anything. They are... what they are. Period. And honestly, they're not all that reliable for what they are. I mean they get the Vessels of Chaos chart and there's really nothing bad on it. But it means they basically can't hurt anything with armor. Yeah AP3 attacks are nice, until I get hit by something has a 2+. I can give 'em Icons. Icon of Wrath would be nice. Furious Charge and can re-roll my charge ranges. That's cool. Icon of flame... I have no ranged weapons. at all. period. what goes does this do me? Icon of Despair would give me fear. That's fun. But yeah. It's fear. And they're already daemons. Doesn't that Upgrade to Terror then? Oh that was 2nd ed? What does it do now? Waste 5 points? Oh okay. Moving on. Icon of Excess, feel no pain. Meh, okay. It's feel no pain. It is what it is. Oh The Icon of vengeance! I can that and that'll make 'em Fear..er...less.... they already are fearless. Okay so of the 9 options that are actually available to the unit 3 of them are either worthless or redundant. The Marks are at least options. Hey t5 is always nice. Though that makes them 30 point a model. Mark of khorne, okay more attacks on the charge are always nice, but for 29 points each. Um Tzeentch would make 'em 3+/4++ okay nice. But again for 30 points a model. and Mark of Slaanesh would make 'em I5 for 29 points a model. Stack that last one with the Supernatural speed from the Vessels of Chaos Table and you got some really fast dangerous Mofos. That will strike last in Close combat if charging through cover....

Mutilators: Okay they're 15 points less then Oblits, nice price point for a Close Combat swiss army knife. But they Deep Strike and can't assault on that turn, don't have Frag grenades and can't take a dedicated transport. ouch. So I spend the 165 points for 3 of these dude, and either spend the first turn getting them into a land raider or start foot slogging it across the field. If I do option 1 it means I have to buy the land raider, which isn't a bad thing persay. It's expensive but land raiders are nice. Oh wait, 'cept Chaos Land Raiders don't get Power of the machine spirit. Well that's not a deal breaker. But it does mean the unit cost has gone from 165 to 395. Ouch... okay not such a great deal. Okay so I'll have to really work to make sure they get their points back. That unit of scouts sitting on the Objective. Okay winning the game is worth the 395. I'll just charge 'em after I shoot 'em up with the Land Raider... and they're in cover. They strike before me. Muties don't have frag grenades.... yeah. I guess I could add a character to the unit. Maybe a Warp Smith with Mark of Khorne... well that solves a lot of the problems, but then that makes the investment 515... :wow:Yeah that about covers why I won't be taking any Mutilators.

Chaos Terminators: There really isn't a reason to not take these guys. But that's also why they're not used very much. They are what they are. And most of what they can do really well (Close combat) can actually be done better with other options such as mauler fiend. With the Hull Points system in place, Termicide isn't as appealing as it once was since it's largely a wasted effort that can have the same end result achieved by other units that don't need to be sacrificed to accomplish it.

Warp Talons: Hey we're Lightning claw equipped jump packers that will blind when we deep strike next to you... and then... um.... we will... wait... to attack you. Until next turn. Which means you get to shoot at us first. And then shoot at us again when we charge you. Unless you charge us first but we can shoot you fir... oh wait. No. No we can't do that. We don't have any guns. Oh you're not going to charge us first? Okay, great now we'll charge you! In cover, but that's fine because... we.... use.... um... we get a 5++ save? yeah you're going first because these claws really can't handle grenades.

So Warp Talons, Thousand Sons, Mutilators are basically worthless to take at all with regards to building a competitive list. All three are high specialized units that are ham strung from doing what they do best. Thousand Sons should be great at shooting all the time, but in reality they're only good at shooting on their terms. They're too expensive to be a speed bump unit and the Sorcerer's randomness is frankly too random to be counted on. Warp Talons and Mutilators would be uber-first strike combat units... if they had an ability to strike at initiative through cover. As it stands in both cases "Hey I'm gonna sit behind thus bush and beat the crap out of you!" is what they hear the most.

So what Terminators and Khorne Berzerkers? Those both look like really good units to take, why don't I see those on the field? Well it's because they're both in the elite section of the army list. Elites are a 0-3 limitation section. And what are these markedly good units competing against from that section? Plague Marines and Noise Marines. Remember what I said I'd heard the most of when talking about CSM army lists lately? 1-3 units of noise marines and 1-3 units of plague marines, usually in combo to each other. Both of those units are in the elites section unless you take a lord/daemon prince/Sorcerer with the appropriate mark to make them troops. So I take a lord with mark of nurgle, get those Plague Marines into the troops section and then take the Noise marines in the elites. Yeah the Berzerkers and Termies don't get taken. If I take a Lord with mark of Slannesh I get the Plagues in the Elites and the Noise 'ems in the troops. Those Zerkies and Termies are still having coffee at home.

What am I going on about? Well a couple weeks I began work on a project to re-design and re-vamp the Chaos Codex. It was originally to be limited to just some force org changes to make more diverse and varied Chaos Space Marine armies possible. Allow variable options of troops based on the lord and his load out, a bit like the Space Marine codex does. If you take a Lord on a bike, you can take biker squads as troops. So that was the objective of that project. But as I worked on it I kept looking at other units, like those that I've already talked about. So that leads me to this: What am I doing with this post.

I want to take a much more detailed look at the Chaos Space Marine Codex, look at every single unit, look at the units interact with one another, look at how the stats stack up against peoples interpretation of the fluff, how it's options work, how they don't work, what options should it have that it doesn't, what options it shouldn't have that it does, what are the pros, what are the cones, all of it. I want to hear from long term Chaos Marine players and I want to hear what you like about the current codex, I want to hear what you hate about it. I want to hear your thoughts about how X unit has changed over editions. I want to hear your opinion about how the units work in the army, how they don't work. Why you take it, why you won't take it.

Why am I asking for all of this information?

Well I want to rebuild the Chaos Space Marine Codex. But I want to dive into the entire process. And I want people to challenge me on it. I want people to offer other views of it. I want to come up with revisions, and then test those revisions in game. Many times. I want to try them 20 times to come to conclusions just to have someone else use the exact same revisions in a way I hadn't considered or even imagined. I want to see how you use the information and then report back on that.

So that is what I'm asking for. You guys to respond to this post with your thoughts.

I only ask for a couple things in return:

1) Respect everyone's statement. everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you feel the opinion is misplaced, explain why you think so. No one-sentence responses please. Explain, and discuss. That's the point of this.

2) when/if you play test a revision of the rules/unit get detailed. report number of shots at what WS, report what terrain you were dealing with. Talk about what you were shooting against, what upgrades each units had, how it worked out, how it didn't work out. What you were planing to do, how it worked out, why it did work or didn't work. Why you feel it didn't work ect.

I did a prior project where I rebuilt the CSM list to accommodate more diverse builds based on the HQ selections, a bit like the Space Marine list. If you take a lord on a bike, bikers are troops, if you take a Warp Smith you can take a helbrute as a troop choice, ect. You can check out the results of that effort below:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Vuuax5X3z8A/U1X1Zt4RL7I/AAAAAAAABQM/F4lx-SePnBI/s1600/codex-cover-web.png.

I've already posted this topic on another forum and gotten some feed back on it. We seem to have started talking about how to revamp the Thousand Sons unit. Here's my initial idea on that front

So, who wishes to embark on a Reign of Chaos with me?

[Xenith]

Such noble ambitions.

 

Personally, I'd go with your own interpretation of each unit, and then open it to criticism. Designing by chaotic committee will be bad.

 

That said:

 

Thousand sons:

 

The original inferno bolts (3rd ed) were AP2, and only in Ahriman's bolt pistol. Regular Thousand sons had regular bolters. Thousand sons I found worked ok in that environment, 23pts each, 2W and immune to S4 or less shooting, and they were not led by a sorcerer.

 

The defensive problem with them is that the squad averages 30pts/model for 5 men, which die like regular marines to bolter fire.

the offensive problem with them, is that their magic bullets are no stronger than a regular bolter against a guardsman. Which is dumb.

 

Either increase the offense to silly level to justify the points: straight AP2, or AP3+ignores cover. Posibly even S6 AP5. That would be interesting, and unique.

 

Defensively, they are armoured golems. You can increase their W to make them take fewer casualties against bolters, or something weird like give them T6, like wraithguard (Thousand Sons are essentially wraithguard: powerful guns, armour animated by the souls of the dead).

 

I think any one of those changes could be made (apart from the 2 one) keeping the TS at their current points. As they are, I think they are maybe worth 18-20pts each: 5pt upgrade from regular csm.

 

The biggest problem with them, IMO, is the aspiring sorcerer. They should not exist, the Thousand Sons are psykers without parallel, not ML1 losers. Drop the forced sorcerer, and I think 23pts/model is reasonable.

 

Also, it's 1/2 to get doombolt: if the asp sorcerer rolls a Warp charge 2 spell, they roll again, as per the rulebook, they dont just have to take the primaris.

[Scribe]

Ok, I'm always up for discussion. I suggest you pick a unit to discuss first, as that will help keep things focused. I think a few of your premises are a bit off the mark, but feel free to start. :D

[zyl-]

Berzerkers aren't just about the mele attacks. No good way to get into combat is a big problem for us in general, and the berzerkers don't have special weapon options that are meaningful (plasma pistol). As for them being elites, that's no problem. The juggerlord with axe is an acceptable HQ choice that bumps them to troops. Better berzerkers would make the lord a bit more worth taking.

[Scribe]

Yeah thats what I'm talking about.

 

You want to discuss the issues with Berzerkers? Its not that they arent troops, though that is of course a factor.

 

1. Mobility.

2. Role.

3. Utility.

4. Reach.

5. Cost.

6. Scoring.

8 . (Because its their Number) Staying power.

 

So quick hitters.

 

1. They dont have fleet, they cannot assault out of a Rhino, and due to items discussed further on, they need to be out there punching and chopping in the name of Khorne. That leaves them with FW options (expensive in $$$ and Points) or a LR, which by itself is sub optimal when used to prop up another sub-optimal unit...yeah.

 

2. Kill units. Your a poor choice for anti-Mech, so you go out and slay dudes. Thats fine, but you have to be able to get there, and due to items discussed further on you better land hard when you arrive. I've bounced off terminators before, and it was just tragic.

 

3. Utility, next to none. You have no ranged attacks worth a damn, you have no ability to influence an area, as your mobility is low.

 

4. Reach. Due to our lack of ranged options, our useful reach is...melee. 6 + 2D6. Thats not optimal in a game/codex where ranged is strong and our deployment/redeployment ability is weak.

 

5. Cost. Its too high with our singular focus and ability. 16 Points wouldnt even have been outside the realm of possibility when I look at Plague and Noise Marines.

 

6. Scoring. Without it, they are not worth bringing at all, when other things can do assault better and/or for less.

 

8. 1 Attack Base, 3+ Save. When the rest of the list is added up, thats not good enough.

 

How do you fix?

 

1. Allow them to assault out of rhinos that have not moved AND

        2. Drop the points a bit OR

        3. Give them 1 Flamer/Melta per 5 OR

        4. Give them at Initiative AP 2 (1 per 5) 2 Handed Chain Axes OR

        5. Give them Base Attack 2

 

EDIT: And all that said, I still can find a use for them, but it takes building a list around them imo.

[maverike_prime]

Ok, I'm always up for discussion. I suggest you pick a unit to discuss first, as that will help keep things focused. I think a few of your premises are a bit off the mark, but feel free to start.

okay, so lets Start with Thousand Sons since Xenith already Responded to my original summation with his own.

Thousand Sons: okay.... 150 points.... for 4 T-sons and a Sorcerer. Okay. Not too bad right there. They are 3+/4++ with AP3 bolters that can basically ALWAY fire twice at 12" and then charge after that... I don't honestly know why you would charge with Thousand Sons. It's important to know that you can! Besides, it's not like anyone will be charging you since you can over watch them into oblivion with your AP3 bolters! Oh... wait. They're Slow and Purposeful. That means they can't over watch.

Well you get a Level 1 psychic with that order so that's cool! He gets to roll on the.... tzeentch table. So he might get... a power he can't actually use because it's Warp power 2. So you'd switch it out for the Primaris power with a 24" range S: D6+1 no AP assault 1 Blast that can generate up to 3 additional S3 hits. Okay, not bad not bad. Nothing really pants dropping but not bad. Might get boon of Mutation, so I can roll on the Boon Table. Okay, Um... I've got a chance to become a spawn or get nothing compared to everything else. And it's limited to a range of 2".... Um yeah. That's a scoop of random with some random sauce and some random sprinkles thrown against a random wall for a random reason. OH! I might get doom bolt! Which... yeah, it's doom bolt. 18" range, S8, AP1 assault1! That'll hurt! But yeah... it's a 1 in 3 shot of getting it.

Such noble ambitions.

Personally, I'd go with your own interpretation of each unit, and then open it to criticism. Designing by chaotic committee will be bad.

That said:

Thousand sons:

The original inferno bolts (3rd ed) were AP2, and only in Ahriman's bolt pistol. Regular Thousand sons had regular bolters. Thousand sons I found worked ok in that environment, 23pts each, 2W and immune to S4 or less shooting, and they were not led by a sorcerer.

The defensive problem with them is that the squad averages 30pts/model for 5 men, which die like regular marines to bolter fire.

the offensive problem with them, is that their magic bullets are no stronger than a regular bolter against a guardsman. Which is dumb.

Either increase the offense to silly level to justify the points: straight AP2, or AP3+ignores cover. Posibly even S6 AP5. That would be interesting, and unique.

Defensively, they are armoured golems. You can increase their W to make them take fewer casualties against bolters, or something weird like give them T6, like wraithguard (Thousand Sons are essentially wraithguard: powerful guns, armour animated by the souls of the dead).

I think any one of those changes could be made (apart from the 2 one) keeping the TS at their current points. As they are, I think they are maybe worth 18-20pts each: 5pt upgrade from regular csm.

The biggest problem with them, IMO, is the aspiring sorcerer. They should not exist, the Thousand Sons are psykers without parallel, not ML1 losers. Drop the forced sorcerer, and I think 23pts/model is reasonable.

Also, it's 1/2 to get doombolt: if the asp sorcerer rolls a Warp charge 2 spell, they roll again, as per the rulebook, they dont just have to take the primaris.

okay, first thing: Noble? Brother, do I need to remind you this is about Chaos? J/k

You know, I had actually forgotten that Inferno Bolts were originally a Ahirman exclusive thing.

And your point about the doombolt is actually a really great example of why I want input on this from other people. The group of folks I play with tend to "simplify" the power selection process. In this case we just replace the Warp Charge 2 power with the primaris power and roll as normal.

Lets take a look at the fluff of the Thousand Sons, or rather the fluff blurb as it appeared in the earliest entry I can find right now, the 3rd edition codex. If someone has info about the unit fluff prior to that, please post it.

description as it appears in the 3.5 edition codex:

The Thousand Sons Legion of Chaos Space Marines Serves Tzeentch and has always included many sorcerers capable of wielding powerful psychic energies. Since the Heresy many other initiates with a talent for sorcery have turned to Tzeentch but there is one category of warrior that will always be unique to the Legion. In an attempt to arrest fast spreading mutation within the Legion the Sorcerer Ahriman cast a spell know as the Rubric of Ahriman, which was so potent that every member of the Thousand Sons who was not a Sorcerer was turned to dust and bound forever in his armour as a disembodied spirit.

In this edition Thousand Sons were normal marines that could only be upgraded to have a second wound and were slow and purposeful.

Then in 4th Edition we got the.... change is the only word I feel safe using to what we basically have now. The AP 3 bolters and the Slow and Purposeful with a 4+ Invulnerable.

There is one other difference the 4th edition Thousand Sons had compared to their current rendition:

The Sorcerer Command: The Aspiring Sorcerer who leads the squad is a Psyker. If the Aspiring Sorcerer is killed, the Thousand Sons Marines roll a single dice for their Slow and Purposeful movement, unless the Squad includes an independent Character with the Mark of Tzeentch from the beginning of the turn.

Now, they are just slow and purposeful period. No change what so ever to it.

I do half agree with Xenith about dropping the Sorcerer. At least the forced part of it. But I also feel there should be a reason to take him. Not an auto-include by any means, but a reason to take him.

So, here's my thought on fixing the T-sons as a unit:

First thing, reduce their invul save to 6+. Actually get rid of it all together in light of what I'm about to say. They get 2 wounds. They're animated suits of armor. Punching a hole in them isn't going to stop them. It's not like punching a hole in their chest will make all the magic fairy dust drain out.

Second thing: Aspiring sorcerer is an upgrade that can be added. Why would you want to add him? Well first he gets access to the Melee/ranged weapons sections of the Armory. Second if you have an attached Sorcerer, or other independent character with mark of Tzeentch the Thousand Sons no longer count as Slow and Purposeful, but rather as Relentless.

Third thing: (name suggestions welcome)

Enchanted Ammunition. They carry a variety of bolt rounds that have been enchanted with various abilities:

Inferno Bolts:

24" S5 AP4 Rapid Fire

Life Eater bolts:

24" S3 AP 5 Rapid Fire, Poisoned (2+)

Forge Breaker Bolts

18" S8 Ap2 Heavy 1

Blue Fire Bolts:

24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire, Soul Blaze

Yeah thats what I'm talking about.

1. Allow them to assault out of rhinos that have not moved AND

2. Drop the points a bit OR

3. Give them 1 Flamer/Melta per 5 OR

4. Give them at Initiative AP 2 (1 per 5) 2 Handed Chain Axes OR

5. Give them Base Attack 2

EDIT: And all that said, I still can find a use for them, but it takes building a list around them imo.

Hmm, weren't there Chain Glaives or something back in second edition?

[maverike_prime]

Oh and I guess I should post this here as well: The 'revamped' codex I made that started me down this particular rabbit hole.

 

Right click on the cover and select 'Save as' to down load it.

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Vuuax5X3z8A/U1X1Zt4RL7I/AAAAAAAABQM/F4lx-SePnBI/s1600/codex-cover-web.png

[Hellios]

I've had similar thoughts on the 1KSons, except I think the sorcerer is a key part of the unit. The problem is that he is too expensive (his psychic powers aren't great as well)...

 

So my idea is to make the sorcerer more important, and so keeping him alive is important as well.

 

Make Rubrics relentless, but reduce them to initiative 1 (keep on reading).

 

The Sorcerer Commands: At the start of the 1KSons player turn a squad of Rubrics may change the bolts they are using, if a sorcerer with a Mark of Tzeentch passes a leadership test. Also, while a sorcerer with the mark of Tzeentch is in the unit, the rubrics have the same I as the sorcerer.

 

So yeah, if your sorcerer dies your rubrics go to I1, and they can't change the type of bolts they are using.

 

Inferno bolts As a bolter, but AP3, and -2 to cover saves.

 

I don't want to be able to ignore 2+ saves, they should be rare, and it would screw over armies like DW, we should be outnumbering armies with 2+ saves across the board. Also, I didn't want to remove cover, as I think it is an important element of the game.... But it can also totally mess us up when our bolters (which we pay a premium for) can't hurt that IG blob squad with a 3+ cover save...

 

Warp bolts As a bolter, but S2, AP6, Fleshbane/Poison (5+), armour bane, warp corruption.

 

Warp corruption: each unsaved caused on a model with more than one wound actually causes D3 wounds.

 

The idea here was a bolt round that unleashes a tiny bit of unfocused warp energy. It is unpredictable, but it can twist metal, and warp flesh. A squad of 9 rubrics in rapid-fire range can probably take down AV11-10 vehicles (I haven't crunched the numbers), and I imagine they could probably do a hull point or 2 on AV12, 13 and up starts getting tricky, but it is possible to take out a Land Raider (If you get lucky). It also deals with monstrous creatures... or big Multi-wound models. Against things with T8 is it obviously the round to go with, but against other things will you find the AP3 more valuable, or the D3 wounds?

 

Then there is the question of defence, or staying power. I think Rubrics should have 2 wounds, I don't want to make them immune to small arms fire... That was a cool rule, and made people use big guns, or engage us in combat... But I don't want to make large portions of peoples armies pointless. So that leaves us with... Increased T, invulnerable saves, and EW... Increased T seems kinda Nurgle, and makes us better against small arms fire, which is what 2 wounds does for us anyway. The problem when we had 2 wounds is that a Rubric army could be shredded by Battle Cannons, and due to out high points, and lack on Anti-Tank weapons... we had a miserable time against guard. EW wouldn't make us tougher against small arms, but it would stop of being smashed by template weapons, or anything else.... Enough high AP attacks would still hurt, I would still see large blast, low AP weapons hurting. The invulnerable save would be somewhere in the middle, we would have a chance of suits being destroyed instantly, but a chance that they might not be hurt at all. An invulnerable would also have an impact on things like plasma, and power weapons.

 

So, what do you guys think? 

[Shuggnuggath]

I think we need to boot the champion of chaos rule into touch and rethink the whole system. At the moment it is a penalty that a canny opponent will exploit the majority of the time .

 

I would rather lose the forced challenge mechanic and offer a reward roll for a champion who slays an opposing character in a challenge. In a challenge I think the champion should rise to it a bit, so I would perhaps give him a small edge he could select from a pool, such as +1ws, +1init or +1str for example. I think that as long as your champion is alive the squad should also benefit, since mobility is a big issue for chaos perhaps he could grant the crusader USR, that way if he should die the squad feels a bit deflated and challenges are still a risk vs reward for the champion.

 

I think the challenge reward table could become a 2 to 12 roll with real benefits rather than side grades. I'm not sure if daemon prince should be on there, a lot of the time it feels like a nerf.

[Xenith]

The problem is that the fluff for the KSons has them as bulwarks of bolter fire for their powerful sorcerers, and are all but immune to normal weapons, needing anti tank stuff to kill them.

 

Having 1W and the invun goes against the fluff, but you cannot have both KSons and PM's being the 'immune to small arms fire' guys. That said, PM's get a 5+ FNP versus lascannons, and TS get a 4+ invun, so the PM's are treading on their toes there.

 

You can't give them ignores cover, because that's a noise marine thing now (along with large S4 AP5 output), and they obviously are not combatty.

 

 

Something like 1W, FNP 3+, no invun is another possible solution.

 

OP, Do you want to take the line of changing the sons to reflect their point cost, or drop the point cost to reflect the usefullness of the Sons?

[maverike_prime]

OP, Do you want to take the line of changing the sons to reflect their point cost, or drop the point cost to reflect the usefullness of the Sons?

I'm honestly not tied to one option over the other. My personal approach is to make the unit worth their cost. However If you want to take the approach of lowering/raising their cost to reflect their usefulness I whole-heartedly encourage you to do so and post your thoughts and experiences with the approach while I do the same with my approach.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Maverike,

 

I'm liking this thread I haven't played with CSM at all so I don't feel I can add anything yet. However might a make a suggestion on Formatting?

 

The DA started a Use this unit in as many games as you can for a month and post your results and ideas/tactics. This worked well for not so used units such as Scouts etc.

 

I saw you said start with 1KSons so I'd say do one post for each unit and give it like a week of people "fixing" said CSM unit.

Just a thought.

DoC

[Xenith]

Good idea, Sgt!

[Trevak Dal]

Beserkers have an identity crisis with BP/CCW MOK CSMs.  I think it could be fixed by keeping the Chain axe upgrade and upping their base attacks to 2 (+1 for being double armed) with the option of replacing the CCW with a chain axe OR another bolt pistol to make use of Gunslinger.

 

Said "gunzerkers" would get 2 shots each and still have 2 + 1 for being double armed attacks.

 

I think Beserkers should have options for power weapons, in addition to plasma pistols-to further differentiate them from CSMs.

 

I think they should modify Counter Attack by having "Furious Counter attack" basically if they pass the roll for getting Counter Attack, it's resolved at +1 strength.  They should also not have the penalties for disordered charges to further differentiate them from MOK CSMs.

[maverike_prime]

Beserkers have an identity crisis with BP/CCW MOK CSMs.  I think it could be fixed by keeping the Chain axe upgrade and upping their base attacks to 2 (+1 for being double armed) with the option of replacing the CCW with a chain axe OR another bolt pistol to make use of Gunslinger.

 

Said "gunzerkers" would get 2 shots each and still have 2 + 1 for being double armed attacks.

 

I think Beserkers should have options for power weapons, in addition to plasma pistols-to further differentiate them from CSMs.

 

I think they should modify Counter Attack by having "Furious Counter attack" basically if they pass the roll for getting Counter Attack, it's resolved at +1 strength.  They should also not have the penalties for disordered charges to further differentiate them from MOK CSMs.

Hmm that gave me a thought. Check out this link for details.

 

Revamped Khorne Berzerkers Version 0.1

 

Oh and I can't believe I didn't post this one before:

 

Revamped Thousand Sons Version 0.1

[daboarder]

you do know that a ML1 psyker that rolls up a ML2 power has to roll again right?

[maverike_prime]

you do know that a ML1 psyker that rolls up a ML2 power has to roll again right?

 

yes, that has been mentioned and replied to already.

[daboarder]

ok fair enough

[maverike_prime]

The crew over at DakkaDakka and I have come up with a new approach to the Thousand Sons. You can see the updated unit by clicking on the card below.

 

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/4-27-14_01%28thousand_sons%29-thumb.png

 

Also, revamped unit for the Khorne Berzerkers as well.

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/4-26-14_01%28khorne_berzerkers%29-thumb.png

[daboarder]

Generating an extra warp token isn't going to really help the aspiring sorcerers much as they cant use the same power twice and can know ML 1 spells...

 

I guess they would get their FW though

 

and I'd consider making the chainglaives unwieldly

 

EDIT: HOLY :cuss? Are you serious, 2 pts for a relic blade

 

edit2:

 

You still have the problem that the core unit is WAY over priced, take those berzerkers. youve got the options and chasis mixed up. Make the zerkers cheaper (15-16 pts a piece) and the upgrades more expensive (4-5 pts for the glaive)

 

get rid of the pistol shooting rule, its bizarre (they shot in the shooting phase), clunky, and wont work (oh look you extended your charge range in exchange for a few measly pistol shots, cheers!)

[maverike_prime]

EDIT: HOLY :cuss? Are you serious, 2 pts for a relic blade

*rubs forehead in annoyance*

 

Does no one understand the idea behind "play testing"? of course it's not going to be 2 points for the damned relic blade! It's just a convenient number to start with. Tell ya what, just because your are the 4th person to raise this exact same point let's make them 125 points each for the first round of testing. There, want to have 4 of 'em in the squad, it's going to be 500 points. Enjoy your relic blade. Too expensive? Okay, Play test it and get back to me with a more workable cost.

[daboarder]

nice attitude mate, you'll get lots of interest with that.

 

Jump down peoples throats at the obvious. Oh and no one in this thread had mentioned that before so....yeah not psychic mate.

[maverike_prime]

nice attitude mate, you'll get lots of interest with that.

 

Jump down peoples throats at the obvious. Oh and no one in this thread had mentioned that before so....yeah not psychic mate.

I do appologize for my response. It was ill-advised, un-called and damaging to my own efforts.

 

That being said, you are the fourth person to raise that exact point (not in this thread mind you) and actually the 3rd to use those exact same words, which is a bit spooky. The part that has become frustrating about it is the auto-response of "Are you serious, 2 pts for a relic blade?" with no explanation, justification or alternate take on the point. No "12 points seems like it's be a better balance for the Chain glave option since it means the models using them will be striking at S7 on the charge" no. No suggestions, no advice, no alternate options. just the approach of "Dude, seriously?" if that's all I was looking for I wouldn't have started this thread. I would have made the changes I thought worked, done the play testing with my normal group of players and worked on it from that point.

 

And then probably gotten fed up with the Tournament players in this area, torn up the book and used it to line my bird cage.

 

My entire basis of starting this thread (in multiple places) is to elicit feed back. Not "Are you sure about this?". That is not feed back.

[maverike_prime]

Revamped Tzeentch Power table based on suggestions and feedback from the Dakka Dakka thread.

 

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/4-27-14-tzeentch-01-thumb.png

[Lexington]

Man, I really dig this effort. Good job, Mav.

 

In a general sense, I think the problems with the Chaos Codex stem from big issues with the core rules of 6th Edtion - the huge preference for shooting over close combat, the overall vulnerability of transport vehicles (and their uselessness as assault platforms), etc. 6th Ed could use a re-write like this.

 

On the rules you've posted:

 

Berzerkers - Just don't like the whole pistol-blade thing; it's not represented on the models, and it feels strange to throw Shred on some dinky handguns when there's a classic Berzerker weapon that could carry the load - it seems cleaner, to me, to just give Shred to the Chain-Axe, and leave the extra pistol shots off. I'd say they don't really need them, and their charge distance/power issue is one that should be solved in the assault phase. Chain-Glaives, given the absolutely devastating effect they have on a charge, seem way undercosted at two points apiece, especially since you can pop them on every single squad member. Losing a Bolt Pistol shot is, in comparison, hardly a notable downside.

 

My suggestion is to go for a more elegant solution - Shred on Chain-Axes, the addition of a Berzerker Charge (3d6"?) to the Berzerkers' profile, and maybe adding a rule that allows them to charge out of Rhinos with a little downside (Disorganized Charge?). That fits the models people already have, and doesn't add so much to the unit entry's overall footprint. The Chainglaives might not be a bad addition (seems 'Zerkerish), but I think they need to be restricted in the same way special weapons are (one per five squad members or so), and obviously need a points adjustment. Maybe 15 points apiece? Chain weaponry also generally doesn't hit AP3 territory elsewhere, so maybe a more Chain-Axe-esque AP4 (and Shred!) and 5pts a model would be a better deal in that case.

 

Thousand Sons - Honestly, I liked your initial efforts a lot more than this re-vamped one. Again on the model front, there's never been a heavy weapon-toting Rubricae, and the addition of Relentless made the Sorcerer extremely useful, and upped the unit's overall usability by quite a bit (Overwatch, yay!). The extra Warp Charge rule's got promise, but I think it restricts their overall usefulness to a Sorcerer Battery, and not a hugely effective one at that.

 

Don't have a lot of suggestions for this version - I thought your first stab at them was damn near perfect. Would love to see it back.